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OfflineDudeTron
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LST Review and Questions
    #351227 - 01/21/10 01:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I have a couple questions about Low Stress Training.  I thought this could also be a thread where everyone can share what they've been doing or have planned in the training department lately.

So I've been tying my plant down for most of it's life.  Mainly just focusing on keeping everything low and allowing new growth to become the dominant tip, and then tying that down.

Now I'm about 2 or 3 weeks into flower and I'm still doing the same thing... basically causing my plant to grow more like a vine outward rather than up.

My question is, when is it time to stop training?  When do I let it go free?  Or should i just keep doing what I'm doing? Am I doing more harm than good by shifting auxins to less budtastic branches this late in the game?


I read this one training overview that was really intense involving releasing your plant during specific times like after a feeding etc. etc. but I can't find it anymore...

So you guys got any good guides?  What kind of training is the Growery up to lately?
Also, I have read This Guide and it is pretty good.  Just trying to expand on it a bit.


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InvisibleDrGreenThumb
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #351231 - 01/21/10 01:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I was always under the impression that you stop training when you start flowering. However, I've seen a few grows where the plants continue to be trained a few weeks into flowering. I'm curious also.

I have 2 plants I'm LST'ing now. Basically working them around the pot and tying down directly to the rim of the pot. They've been growing since October and still have about another month to go before I can flower them. Here they are. The first one is one of them a few weeks ago right after I trained her.


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OfflineDudeTron
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351234 - 01/21/10 02:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Beautiful man... I would've loved to get mine that size but I think some autoflowering genes snuck into my girl and she started budding on 24/0 so I had to flip her...



Here's a pic from just a second ago... I just tied her down like crazy last night when I was starting to wonder if I was doing more harm than good.  My tentative plan is to give her a big feeding and totally untie to see what I end up with, and maybe go from there...  Plan B is to go ahead and feed, untie, and then possibly retie but just to kind of space out my favorite budsites and wait till it stops stretching... Whaddaya think?

BTW, as you can see I use pipe cleaners... I happen to have a bunch and they're soft.  I usually just make a hook on one end and get ahold of a branch, then pull it to where I want it towards the rim of the pot.  Then I just bend the cleaner under the rim... I thought it was pretty clever.. I don't have to drill holes or anything.  Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #351240 - 01/21/10 02:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Trained them 3 days ago.  I swear by LST, just wonder why I didn't do it last run... :nonono:

 

Those little branches/soon to be tops were barely even existent a few days ago.  I haven't checket yet for 24 hours but they are exploding really fast.  I also gave them a full feeding yesterday so things should look good when I check them soon.  Did I mention I FUCKING LOVE GARDENING?!?!


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InvisibleDrGreenThumb
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #351243 - 01/21/10 03:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Wow Dude, that's not a bad LST for an autoflower. Personally, I'm not sure what to think. I definitely wouldn't untie and then retie though.

My question (to someone with a knowledge about LST) is "are you supposed to UNTIE when you start flowering?"

I also want to know the answer to your question. "Is it beneficial to continue tying down after flowering has started." I have yet to find DEFINITIVE answers to these questions.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351259 - 01/21/10 03:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes training a plant in flowering is the best alternative to letting the buds burn by the lights.  Regarding your question about whether to untie or not during flowering, i say it depends on a lot of factors.  If you untie the plants, will they go into an undesirable position?  What's the harm in leaving them?  Here's something that's kind of interesting.  I trained a few plants from around flowering start that as the stem grew it grew around the rope (hemp:) and was my largest yielder. 



I think the questions that you asked in the last post are really questions you have to ask yourself.  How does this strain typically react to lst?  Lots of things to consider in training your plants.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351263 - 01/21/10 03:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Are you supposed to untie?  No, they will slowly start to get taller and out of control if you do.  You could near the end of flowering but there is no benefit to it.

Is it beneficial after flowering has begun?  Yes.  Not so much for creating more budsites or changing the growth pattern, but if you have a dense Indica like I do that is nearly done, some of the large branches should be pulled slightly away from the main stem, outward in a 360 degree circle from the stalk.  This will allow more light penetration and will increase the surface area.  The popcorn buds have more of a chance to fill in and catch up in maturity.  Not to mention it's just MORE light that the plant can feed off of.

The undergrowth was dying on my plant because the vegetation was so thick and NO light was getting into the inner parts of the plant.  Not a bad thing if your focus is the top buds, but I like to smoke ALL of my buds and try to get as high of a % of them to fatten up, instead of just the main nuggets. 

The earlier you start your LST, the more it will have an effect on the plant's growth pattern.  It's just a great method in general.  I like topping but got sick of waiting for the plant to heal and reallocate it's resources before noticeable growth returned.  With LST it's almost a seamless transition of growth hormones to the apical tip down to the auxiliary sites and I notice almost no delay in growth.  :thumbup:  I hope this helps


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InvisibleDrGreenThumb
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #351264 - 01/21/10 03:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Tell me about it. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with leaving them tied up. For me it's kinda like a Scrog where the pots' rim acts more like a screen.

Ya'll got me thinking now though. I planned on leaving both tied up but now I'm thinking about untying one when it's time to flower.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351272 - 01/21/10 04:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I personally wouldn't.

That's when keeping them restrained is most important IMO.

They are going to stretch into undesirable positions in the first 3-4 weeks of flower. 

What lighting system are you using?  The stronger it is, the deeper it can penetrate and aggressive LST isn't as necessary as it is for me only using a 150.  I have about a foot of "usuable/strong" lighting so I aim to keep them around 14-16 inches tall, but shaped like an upside down triangle to get the most coverage at an even canopy level.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
    #351284 - 01/21/10 04:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm using a General Electric 400W vertical high-bay HPS. I will keep them tied down now that you mention it. No need to deviate from the preplanned path right? The ones I'm LST'ing are vegging under a 4' Overdriven shoplight.

I'd say that whether or not you top or train is dependent on what you are trying to achieve. The LST'ing started out as an experiment for me but now I couldn't imagine killing 2 beautiful ladies. Topping does slow the growth but my aim was to get two colas instead of one, thereby maximizing the use of the light at the top of the plant.

On a side note, in the past few weeks I've gotten some branches growing out of branches. They seem to form a small bud site and then the top of it turns brown and starts to shrivel. I'd cut them but there are so many I don't want to cause undue stress. Additionally, I can't stretch my branches outward because the canopy is so THICK that it wouldn't make a difference anyway. I already hacked off the lowest branches early in flowering.

Here's the setup. The ballast is above the reflector.


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Edited by DrGreenThumb (01/21/10 04:53 PM)


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351370 - 01/21/10 05:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm pretty sure I get way more tops if I LST than if I top.  They aren't really that different, although I would say LST is much more effective at using as much light as possible with smaller amounts of plants or a small space.  Topping basically just splits the growth of one plant into 2 smaller plants.  They can still stretch out of control using topping.  LST they aren't going anywhere...

The branches growing from branches is a good thing, those will all be nice buds.  If they are dying you have a serious problem.  From the looks of it your light is too close.  You don't have what looks to be adequate ventilation to have them that close.  Back the light off a few inches and report back.  You will also be able to cover more area with the light a few inches further away.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
    #351398 - 01/21/10 06:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I can imagine you get many more tops with LST but on the flipside they are not as big. I can't wait to flower them and see what I get. I just took these pics for this thread. As you can see on the right side of the pic it looks like the top. But it's not. That is actually the lowest branch on the plant! The second pic is where that branch comes off the main stem. The lowest branch on this plant is the thickest branch.


The branches from branches will not be buds AND there is no serious problem. The issue is that these branches are getting almost NO light because of the thick, dense canopy. Once the buds started fattening up they cut off light to the lowest parts of the plant. Even though the light is VERY close (the bottom of the bulb is 2 inches from the top of the center plant) the fan keeps it in check. The airflow blows through the cardboard barriers and up the corners.  Canopy temps never get above 80 even when the heat is on. Most of the light is directed downward, thanks to the vertical orientation of the light and reflector, so raising it will not give me any more USABLE coverage.

I must keep the light this close to keep them from stretching too much. Additionally the bulb is of questionable age and I'm sure it's suffering from serious lumen degradation. Here's a pic of said branches. As you can see there are three of them in the pic. The other pic is of the canopy. It's a JUNGLE in there.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351412 - 01/21/10 07:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You just took which pics, the first set or the 2nd?

I didn't know you had a bush like that, then yes they are dying because they don't get enough light.  I didn't know you had vegged it for that long.  How old is that plant and how long was it vegged for?

I was imagining a much younger smaller plant.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
    #351420 - 01/21/10 07:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I just took the top pics. Those are still vegging under OD shop lights. They've been growing since October and still have about another month until I have the room to flower them. They're getting out of hand for my veg closet.

I took the first pic in the second set just to show you what I meant by branches from branches. Those are on day 37 of flowering.

The dying branches ARE NOT on the LST'd plant. Sorry if I confused you a little.

The vegging ones are LST'd the Flowering ones were topped.


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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss


Edited by DrGreenThumb (01/21/10 07:24 PM)


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OfflineFarmer Joe
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351808 - 01/22/10 11:15 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This is LBH's 4-way Lst/Topping tutorial from grass city. It's a great step by step tek. I personally plan on using this on my clones in the spring. I read above where you guys had discussed  which training technique would create more bud-sites. Shit... why not incorporate both? I don't have first hand experience, but it appears to be a viable method. Maybe some of you will find this of interest.

http://forum.grasscity.com/advanced-growing-techniques/438408-lbhs-4-way-lst-tutorial-w-topping-sub-tutorial.html


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Farmer Joe]
    #351842 - 01/22/10 12:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Fucking aye right, thanks Joe! Awesome link. I've seen this done before 2-way over at ICmag and planned on trying it my next LST. Now I'm gonna try this instead. I figured on topping and tying the resulting two main branches opposite each other and letting the lower branches fill in the middle. This seems like a much better idea in that you don't have to go around the pot at all; just tie to the edges. Plus the first top is much earlier in veg.

I won't be able to try this until I flower the other two though. They're getting waaaay out of hand. As it is, I'm having trouble shutting the veg closet door without damaging them. Plus I'm running out of places to tie them down. Oh well, I'm not complaining. I can't wait to try this though. It should be fun.


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OfflineFarmer Joe
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #351883 - 01/22/10 02:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No prob.
I thought it may be helpful.  I am glad I came across it.
Good luck finishing those girls you posted! They look very nice.:gethigh:


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Farmer Joe]
    #351892 - 01/22/10 02:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Farmer Joe said:
This is LBH's 4-way Lst/Topping tutorial from grass city. It's a great step by step tek. I personally plan on using this on my clones in the spring. I read above where you guys had discussed  which training technique would create more bud-sites. Shit... why not incorporate both? I don't have first hand experience, but it appears to be a viable method. Maybe some of you will find this of interest.

http://forum.grasscity.com/advanced-growing-techniques/438408-lbhs-4-way-lst-tutorial-w-topping-sub-tutorial.html




Nice link!  he did a good job with that pictorial.


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OfflineDudeTron
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #352047 - 01/22/10 08:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That IS a nice tutorial...

He's actually got me thinking more about topping too...

Did you guys notice he continues to top throughout veg?  That's something I haven't seen alot of.

Also, I think I've decided that you definitely spend extra time with a plant if you do alot of heavy training.  It seems like the 8+ week veg should be expected before you've actually gotten much more out of your plant... After that I'm going to go ahead and say you start to get a giant fucking monster exponentially growing plant, the likes of which you probably wouldn't see with just a 10 week old untrained plant.

Anyone else think it was cool to be perpetual with an 8 week veg too?

So invereted, you think it could just be your genetics that don't like the topping or is it something that seems pretty consistent?

Oh, also;  What are you guys thinking about the yield debate?  Are we just making nugs look different in the end or are we really getting bonus buds?  This was another one of my major questions... I haven't seen a ton of these bushes flower... We're not all gonna end up waist deep in popcorn are we?


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #352050 - 01/22/10 08:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm definitely going to top one to the MAX on the next round. I think perpetual topping with an 8-12 week veg would be killer.

Also, I DON'T think the pause in growth after topping has anything to do with genetics. Most likely has to do with the plant having to make more auxins in the new top branches before they start to take off.


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OfflineDudeTron
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #352056 - 01/22/10 09:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Oh yeah, DrGreen....

  The inside of my plant is the same exact mess as yours... Have you thought about if you're going to thin it at all?  I was thinking after the flowering stretch I may chop everything that's lookin a little shiesty...


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #352057 - 01/22/10 09:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Also, I was thinking with my next babies I'll do the 5th node top, the tie-down, and after the resulting 'fill-in' throwing it into flower...

I think a 4 week veg that looked like this:


Would be a great plant to flower a couple of... It'd be a good way to get to know your genetics without a huge commitment too.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #352062 - 01/22/10 09:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I am going to thin after the flowering stretch, but only the branches that are blocked by light that don't look like they will produce a nice nug. Like I said earlier, I haven't flowered an LST'd plant yet so it will be a learning experience for me.

From what I gathered from that TEK, I don't think he topped after the 5th NODE but after the first set of 5-blade leafs; which looks more like the 3rd. or 4th. node.

If you look at the pic of my flowering ladies, those were topped after the 5th. or 6th. node (not sure, it's hard to keep count when the internodal spacing is so short). Now I'm thinking I should have done it one or two nodes sooner.

I'm still new (see noob) at this myself but I'm learning fast. I feel like I can't learn much more from researching on the internet. I NEED more space to work with, which requires more light. Unfortunately, I'm out of a job for the winter and funds are limited. Luckily by the end of next summer I should be well ahead of the game. After all I do have a pretty big spare bedroom to use the only obstacle is getting it all lit up.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #352142 - 01/23/10 12:03 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, you're right about the topping.  First growth after five-bladers. 
I paraphrased mentally and then forgot and it came out fucked up... When it happens in real life my girl says I'm speaking "dudetron" language...

Anyway man, you're my hero if you've got a whole room to work with... What kind of light do you have?  I think you could fuck around with veg quite a bit... a real nice veg room can be made for cheap... You could keep a sweet bonsai mom, take clones, practice training, and just flower one or two at a time this winter.  Hmm... If you lived in a medical area, could you sell a vegging, mature, mommy bush to a patient?

I'm pretty excited now to see how all of ours are gonna look when it's all said and done.  My main stem is 'spiral' style with no topping so it's gonna look insane full of buds after a harvest manicure.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #352251 - 01/23/10 07:23 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You can see the light I'm running on the first page of this post. It's a General Electric 400W vertical high-bay HPS. Here's the story behind it from my second post ever.
Quote:

DrGreenThumb said:
One day my girlfriend was x-country skiing and I was walking on the trail for my lack of skiing skills, when my girl stopped to get a bird nest (don't ask, she's like that). I walked ahead and decided to explore this abandoned factory. The roof had caved in in parts because of the snow and the inside was a dump but I was curious. I walked into one room where the roof was collapsed and guess what I found? That's right, right there on the placard on the ballast it read 400W HPS. Much to my surprise it was already rigged for 110V. The roof had barely missed it when it collapsed and it was frozen to the floor in solid ice. Like it's gonna work, right?
  Here's the weird part. I started looking around the room for something to break the ice. Nothing. I came back to the light and BAM!!! Leaning against the wall, right next to the light, was an old ice chisel! Almost like God saying, "Grow my son." So I chipped out the reflector from the ice and returned that night to pick it up in the truck. I'm thinking, like that piece of shit is gonna work. So I get it home drag it upstairs and plug er in. BBZZZZZ! Just like magic.




I love telling that story. I still can't believe it happened. I always wanted an HPS but could never justify the expense to myself. Boy was I wrong! Now I need to upgrade to at least 1K watts. When destiny burns out your retinas, GROW WEED. :eek:

I am currently flowering in the main room and vegging in the closet. I can't really make use of anymore space until I get a tent for flowering. I'm trying to keep the room as normal looking as possible. It's on the third floor and I like to open the curtain during the day so no one get suspicious. I don't want anyone saying (or thinking), "What's that funny looking glow coming from that window 12 hrs a day?" See what I'm getting at? :cop2:


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OfflineAzyle00
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
    #352298 - 01/23/10 01:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I have had great success with LST and auto flowering strain.  This was done under 1000 watt HPS for about twenty days while they finished veg stage and continued with careful, daily tieing and adjusting, promoting a never ending race of hormones competing to be the supreme top.  As they preflowered I continued and did it during the flowering life for about 20 more days.  Finally, at this point, each plant has a minimum of 12 "tops" and a few more side tops and mini tops.  I have released them, trim them and completely let them grow freely now for about 20 more days at the time of the photos, the off colour is mostly because I shot them with my camera under the light while it was on, but you can get the point.  They are bigger and thicker in real life, pictures never do justice:



Each LST'ed stalk runs a length from 8 inches to 14 inches depending on plant and flowering is occurring from growing base to the artificially created canopy level.

These plants still have 4 more weeks left in their predicted flowering length based on the strain.

So LST can and does work with auto flowering strains, improves yield tremendous if done correct.


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"The best part about going to sleep each night is knowing that my plants will have grown more when I wake up in the morning."

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InvisibleInverted
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Azyle00]
    #352413 - 01/23/10 07:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Holy shit Azyle that is some pro training on those AF's... damn nice.

I can't believe those are autoflowers... wtf.  I wonder if training slowed down the initiation of flowering allowing for more vegetative growth.

I'm trying to make mine do that exact same thing, Im just waiting on time...  I have to flower before they get quite that large though.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
    #352448 - 01/23/10 08:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah Azyle those are great man... Can you go over your training technique briefly?  Do you top at all?  How old before you start training?  Also, it's worth noting that Azyle DOES LET THEM GO (untie) after initial stretch, 2-3 weeks into flower.
  Man, so that puts those AF at 12 weeks total?  How's that compare to other AFs?  Pretty common?  I'm thinking along the same lines; does training slow them down?


  That is a great story btw DrGreen... Twas meant to be man.  I remember your light from earlier now too.  I think if I were really gonna go for it in a spare bedroom, I'd make a false front for the window... Just enough room to make a box which can hold a regular lamp on a timer, with a heavy curtain over it. 
  Also I see what you mean about your space situation... are you out of room in the closet?  Like I was saying, you can really go mad scientist on some veg stuff... cull all but the best, get your cloning down, train like crazy.  Especially if you've got your flower space all dialed in, that can be worth alot... Tents and cabinets start adding headaches and bills real quick engineering proper ventilation etc.  Working in an entire room can be way more forgiving.


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #352826 - 01/24/10 11:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks.

As for technique, I germinated and seeded them and veg them under flo lights for about 2 weeks then around 4th node, transplanted and moved to the 1000 watt HPS.  Once they hit 9 inches or so, about 4 weeks since seed, I began tieing them off.  I use speaker wire etc, flexible copper with plastic coating that you can buy at home depot quite cheap and cut to size.  This make adjusting them daily possible if you need too.  Like a clock face, I bend and tie off the top of the plant to 12 oclock and waited for dominance to appear and then tie off the first two nodes that take off 6 oclock and 5 oclock positions etc, always maintaining multiple tops now that are trying to be number one.  By the time a few weeks go by, I have easily a dozen tops and have been running the orignal top clockwise and working it into tops etc. 

LST for this strain, Early Wonder Skunk did not delay flowering imho.  Flowering and sex and all that was right on schedule.  But this strain grows a fair bit for the official first two weeks of flowering, 3 weeks even.  These plants are now twelve weeks along and I expect 3 - 4 more weeks flowering to finish still.  30 day Veg period, 90 day flowering is what I have read for the strain.  Point being, you can get this AF under your 1000 HPS quite early, cause it to stretch grow a bit during the LST and have it fully trained by the time it has finished 90% of all height based growing.  Now they grow an inch a week if I am lucky and its all top bud.

I released all the training like I said once things were set in place and growth had slowed considerably to allow the plant to finish out its growth, flowering naturally.  It really gets to a point where the training is no longer required.

I do not top at all, that is a complete waste of hormones, top growth.  Causes stress to plant etc.  Also, my technical tops still have the thickest bud growth, despite having spent the majority of its life as the non dominant branch.

I really should take some better pictures, the ones I posted do not show off the true size of the buds lol.

When training, I have also discovered that HPS lights can add some needed stretch, specifically when you did use proper flo lights early in the training and created a very compact set of 4 nodes, then pop into the HPS and it will grow very fast and allow you to get set up quickly in the desired shape.  Two weeks of serious shaping and tieing I would say, with a lot of tweaking after as it grows into shape and settles.


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"I never post unless high.  Well that does explain a lot then."

"The best part about going to sleep each night is knowing that my plants will have grown more when I wake up in the morning."

"I smoked it then I became so tired that my eyes shut down automatically without my consent" - My Chinese GF, Oct 23, 2009 :smile:

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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Azyle00]
    #352868 - 01/25/10 02:50 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Wow thanks Az that's damn near a tek.  I think the pics look great and pretty much speak for themselves as far as how well your method works.

I like the idea of intentional stretch too.  So when trying to stretch with floro is it just not possible because you've also slowed down growth too much at those distances or what? hmmm


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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
    #352986 - 01/25/10 04:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No it is possible but not in a way that is beneficial to this long term as it both causes stretching but inhibits growth as you are causing the stretch with flo lights by reducing Lumens via distance.  In my case, I am reducing the spectrum of light to a very thin amount of blue from the Hydrolux, so it continues to receive the ample amount of light, but the lack of blue light causes it to stretch when vegging.  The idea here being you are stretching the branches after having initially built a tight 4 to 5 node main stalk prior to LST and the HPS light.


--------------------
"I never post unless high.  Well that does explain a lot then."

"The best part about going to sleep each night is knowing that my plants will have grown more when I wake up in the morning."

"I smoked it then I became so tired that my eyes shut down automatically without my consent" - My Chinese GF, Oct 23, 2009 :smile:

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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Azyle00]
    #353476 - 01/26/10 12:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah thanks for showing us that Azyle. I guess I will untie one and see what happens. That does sound more interesting now that I think about it longer.


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