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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Light position question
    #686266 - 09/25/13 05:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I'm reading up how to grow a little, and I've been reading about training techniques like tying down the top of the plant to make the nodes grow out even.

I'm wondering if positioning the lights on the sides of plant would cause the branches to grow like in the tie down method? If not what exactly causes the redistribution of auxins when you tie down the top? Is it aiming the top away from the light? does gravity play a role?

I'm mainly wondering if there's any benefit or disadvantage to putting lights on the walls around the plants instead of just above them.

-

ALSO I don't understand why you're supposed to veg at 6500 kelvin and flower at 2500-3000k(I think) with florescents. What would be wrong with flowering at 6500k? I would think the kelvin being closer to natural light color would better at all stages and if anything you'd need to adjust the lumens or distance from the lights, but I'm a total noob to the hobby information, so I have no idea.

Any help would be appreciated.


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn] * 2
    #686335 - 09/26/13 04:14 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Midgetpawn said:
I'm reading up how to grow a little, and I've been reading about training techniques like tying down the top of the plant to make the nodes grow out even.

I'm wondering if positioning the lights on the sides of plant would cause the branches to grow like in the tie down method? If not what exactly causes the redistribution of auxins when you tie down the top? Is it aiming the top away from the light? does gravity play a role?

I'm mainly wondering if there's any benefit or disadvantage to putting lights on the walls around the plants instead of just above them.




Positioning lights on the side of the plant will not really make them grow in an LST fashion unless you use some kind of vertical rod to pull the plant back towards. The plant will just try to grow diagonally towards the light.

LST takes advantage of producing right angles on the main stem to the branches - you can easily see why the best way to produce right angles on the main stem would be to hang the light above the plants, because all you have to do is bend the main stem 90 degrees in any direction to successfully LST the plant.

I've seen grows where people position their HID bulb vertically and then placing plants around it to get good light distribution, but it is still above the plants.
example 1

Then of course you have circular vertical grow systems like this:
example 2
example 3
example 4

But take notice of how the plants are plantedl; at what angle they are exiting the grow media? The surface of the grow media is still somewhat parallel to the light and the plants are all growing diagonally with no LST'ing - because in a setup like that, it's unnecessary to LST at all...

Here is a cool link to check out: http://www.omegagarden.com/
This particular company claims the circular grows produce 3-5 times the yield of conventional grow systems. Why that is exactly, I'm not sure... very elaborate machines they sell.

People have also performed upside grows with cannabis plants with some success. example 5

But back to the point - people use vertical grows to avoid LST as LST takes advantage of horizontal space.

Quote:

Midgetpawn said:
ALSO I don't understand why you're supposed to veg at 6500 kelvin and flower at 2500-3000k(I think) with florescents. What would be wrong with flowering at 6500k? I would think the kelvin being closer to natural light color would better at all stages and if anything you'd need to adjust the lumens or distance from the lights, but I'm a total noob to the hobby information, so I have no idea.

Any help would be appreciated.




I know you're not talking about HIDs, but I would highly advise you not to go down the flourescent road, as it will actually cost you more in the long run with very poor results. However, the information bellow is relevant to your question about color spectrums.

The plants look for environmental ques as to when it should vegetate or start flowering. One que is from light hours, the other is from color spectrum. Decreasing light hours obviously has the strongest effect here, but vegetating with an HPS (lower spectrum) for instance can cause stress in the plants because doing so emits two contradicting environmental ques about what time of the season it is and what the plant should do. Some people will tell you there's nothing wrong with vegging with an HPS and that's all you technically need - which is true actually, but is it the best way? no.

Quote:

HPS is high in reds, which works well for flowering, while the Metal Halide is rich in blues, needed for the best vegetative growth.


reference

The science behind that statement goes beyond the scope of my understanding, but here is something to think about:

Quote:

HPS lamps can be used to grow a crop from start to finish. Tests show that the HPS crop will mature 1 week later than a similar crop under MH, but it will be a bigger yield, so it is better to wait the extra week.


reference

So with MH, it will grow faster, but with HPS it will produce a larger yield. Used in conjunction with controlled light hours for respective phases, and you will have the best results.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.


Edited by TomCollins (09/26/13 04:30 AM)


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Offlinebudgrowerwannabe
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Re: Light position question [Re: TomCollins]
    #686343 - 09/26/13 11:10 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Good post very informative !


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: budgrowerwannabe]
    #686362 - 09/26/13 04:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks a lot for the response. Yeah now that I think about it, it seems obvious the plants would still just grow tward the light. Since this post I've actually found a vertical method of LST for side lights. I keep thinking of questions to be extra lazy for a grow, but if anything I'd probably be obsessive/overly attentive. I was just curious I guess.

The main reason I have to use florescent is because I happen to have 3 4'long duel florescent housings/tubes(6 4-foot T5 6500k lights), and I'm too broke to buy all the other stuff I'd need AND new lights, but I've definitely been looking at new lighting options. LED's are tempting, but it kind of seems like a gimmick, and they seem overpriced considering how cheap it is for companies to make LED lights.

I'd just be growing for personal use anyway and I've seen the florescent lights produce some very nice buds before, so I'm not too concerned, but I might have to get some lower kelvin lights for flowering if I need more red. I can definitely see florescent light not having much red in it regardless of the light spectrum. You can visually see that the HID and HPS lights are more red.

Off topic, but does anyone know a good place to find out which strains are best for training or shouldn't be trained?  or a list of strains that have such strong smells that even coming to your front door would reek?


Edited by Midgetpawn (09/26/13 04:13 PM)


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Offlinebudgrowerwannabe
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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686398 - 09/26/13 10:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds good man .Throw up a log  so we all can fallow!!


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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686411 - 09/27/13 12:18 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Midgetpawn said:
Off topic, but does anyone know a good place to find out which strains are best for training or shouldn't be trained?  or a list of strains that have such strong smells that even coming to your front door would reek?




.... it's probably unwise to select autos for training intentions, but otherwise I don't see why you can't train any stable genetic. Indica strains will harvest faster, and Sativa strains will take more time and will also be larger and more stretched.... so in terms of training, it seems like using an Indica strain would be the least work and involvement.

I'm growing some sour diesel and pineapple chunk at the moment, and the smell isn't too bad at all but I light incense as well. A carbon filter would take care of smell issues if you're worried. There are DIY teks on the internet if you're looking for a cheap solution. link


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: TomCollins]
    #686543 - 09/27/13 11:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yea I'll probably always avoid auto's. The impression I got is that they're for people who want to grow outdoors in less than optimal conditions.

I'm not convinced that 3000k is better than 6500k for flowering wit CFL. The sources I've seen seem to suggest 2500 because its closer to the kelvin of HPS. I'll try to find a good reason why 3000 is better for flowering than 6500k, but coming from the shroomery I'd come to understand 6500k as being closer to actual sunlight than anything below it. I'm not even sure if the sun has a lot of red output or whatever. If anyone has a good explanation why/link, feel free to share =)


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686576 - 09/28/13 03:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

From my understanding, the light spectrum in flowering times in nature tends to shift to a more orange spectrum.  And we are trying to replicate that.  Whether that's true or not, I haven't done enough research on it.


I will tell you this though.  I have done side by side comparisons or MH vs. HPS, and HPS kicks the shit out of MH when it comes to yield.  So there may be something to it.


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #686591 - 09/28/13 05:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well I did more "research" and I understand why HPS are much better than fluorescents for the flowering/budding stage, but I just don't understand what about flowering/budding requires more red spectrum.

The reason HPS 2000k or bulbs that have higher amounts of red light are better is because they keep plants from getting too big, but support flowering/budding well I guess.

Based on a few hours of studying last night, If you want big plants/yield I think the best option for all around growing would be to use LED covering as much of the red spectrum as you can get, also use either a proven full wide spectrum grow light HPS or a normal 2000k HPS combined with a MH that's as close to 6500k you can get, or just normal HPS with 6500k fluorescents that have decent lumens . I didn't read that somewhere, I'm just guessing based on charts of light spectrum outputs and the supposed light spectrum that plants use.

LED might work ok to pinpoint specific light spectrum, but the grow lights sold only cover about 3 different pin point light colors, and IMO should have a full range of red to yellow. I still think LED prices are a scam taking advantage of the fact that they are a new technology. They require barely any power and are tiny pieces of plastic. Whoever sets the initial LED high prices must be making some serious overhead.


Has anyone tried comparing HPS by itself to: HPS + MH together, or HPS and LED, or HPS + LED + MH? the 3rd has to be the best. maybe add in a few cfl =)


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


Edited by Midgetpawn (09/28/13 05:26 PM)


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686596 - 09/28/13 05:54 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yes Ive thrown in MH with HPS, and the only way I would do it is if I had over 5000watts of light, at a ratio of 2mh 3hps. 

And even then it wasn't worth it.  Ive been under the light for about a decade now, and run solid HPS.  Wont switch back.


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #686605 - 09/28/13 08:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Are specialized grow HPS lights even worth getting Vs. regular commercial HPS? They claim to have higher amounts of the light spectrum covered(still 2000k or so), but its the difference between 10 and 60$.

Should I just get a 5-10$ bulb over a special grow bulb?


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686609 - 09/28/13 08:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Regular ones have reported to work.  But it is worth it.  If you are balking at a measly 60 bucks, you may want to rethink this hobby.  It is not a cheap one.


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #686611 - 09/28/13 08:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well it's not that I'm cheap as much as my interest in the hobby is heavily outweighing my budget =X Not going to stop me from making a decent start though.

Technically I already have everything I need to grow besides seeds, but It's all oldschool grow stuff and I'd like to upgrade a little before I can upgrade a lot.


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


Edited by Midgetpawn (09/28/13 08:56 PM)


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686614 - 09/28/13 09:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

A cheap bulb is a starting point, for sure. They do the job. Just like you can freeze food in a sandwich baggie. It's not the best thing to do it with, and you'll probably end up with freezerburn quickly. You're better off spending the cash to buy a vacuum sealer if you really want to store food in your freezer though.

It's the same with your bulb. A commercial HPS bulb will work for what you want. But to really grow good medicine, you'll want to spend the cash to get one that's made specifically for that purpose.


--------------------
My best run so far


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: Tank333]
    #686624 - 09/28/13 10:32 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah but still most people get by just freezing food and never worrying about anything more. I do plan to go above and beyond the average home personal grower someday, but atm I only want to grow for fun and to have something to smoke. Technically you could grow by just putting seeds in the ground in the right part of the world at the right time with nothing but seeds.

So based on experience there is a noticeable difference in result between a high quality grow light and a cheap regular hps of the same watts? The color temperature spectrums show that there's potential, but a lot of it seems to be non red color temperatures. Like the 2000k range seems decently covered by both grow lights and non grow lights, but the grow bulbs claim to have increased non red color temperatures.
Meh I need to figure out why red is even better for flowering.

Heres a site with different kind of light spectrums compared to Photosynthetically Active Radiation. light comparisons

Anyone grow with solar genesis light emitting plasma? That seems to be the best option if you have $7000 to spend.


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686673 - 09/29/13 02:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I've seen a grow log on THCFarmer that the guy had like 2 sixers next to a Gavita LEP in a 5x5 tent, and he had amazing yield, with gorgeous coloring on the flowers. Amazing resin production, too! It was almost dripping off of the buds... that's the only time I've ever seen them used. I talk of getting one to use, but just can't seem to be able to scrounge up the thousand it'll take to get one. They retail for $1299, but a friend who works at Beaver Bark can get me one at cost, which is a little over $900...


--------------------
My best run so far


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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686674 - 09/29/13 03:03 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Midgetpawn said:
Meh I need to figure out why red is even better for flowering.




Maybe it doesn't matter what the fundamental molecular biological explanation is... I would imagine to truly appreciate and understand such an explanation would require some background in plant sciences. Dropping a seed into the ground somewhere and expecting a no effort full grown budding cannabis plant, is an extremely normative way of thinking...

Testing shows what works and what does not, and it even shows this without us having to understand why it works; yes you can get by with less if you want, but at the end of the day you are choosing something that does not work very well (relatively speaking) and why this is, is perhaps above your understanding and in the end it's either bound to disappoint or it's bound to be replaced...

I in your shoes would just take a course in plant biology and just go with the statistics... but that's just my 2 cents.

If the answer is actually very simple and you find out, let us know! :happyweed:


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: TomCollins]
    #686690 - 09/29/13 05:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I just know that in the mushroom growing community theres tons of outdated obsolete information going around, and the now standard method of cultivating is only a few years old and came from a member on shroomery.org. Up until maybe 4 years ago people were told to colonize substrate in total darkness, some sources even still tell you too, but someone(probably RR) figured out it's beneficial to do it in ambient light. I don't mean to challenge years of accepted practice, just making sure there's a legitimate reason why these hps lights are actually better besides the heavy lumens at reduced wattages.

I really don't even care that much, but I was hoping it would turn out I didn't have to buy more lights =P


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Light position question [Re: Midgetpawn]
    #686706 - 09/29/13 08:41 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Midgetpawn said:
I just know that in the mushroom growing community theres tons of outdated obsolete information going around, and the now standard method of cultivating is only a few years old and came from a member on shroomery.org. Up until maybe 4 years ago people were told to colonize substrate in total darkness, some sources even still tell you too, but someone(probably RR) figured out it's beneficial to do it in ambient light.




Oh boy!

Sure, there is a ton of misinformation in circulation, but whether it's with mushroom  or cannabis cultivation, there are major overlaps in the techniques used in successful grows - this is something to look for.

Unless a persons controlled experiment has been replicated many times, there is no external validity to it. This however, is not the case with lower-spectrum HID lights and growing cannabis - using lower-spectrum HID's to grow larger flowers have been in use for decades by both illegal growers and legitimate businesses. The reason for this is because it's been proven to work the best (excluding LED's) many times over.

I commend you in your thirst for knowledge, and your wisdom to not believe everything that people tell you on message boards - however, you might save some time if you look for the absolute consistencies and build off of those, rather than asking why it is exactly plants need lower-spectrum light during flowering and working your way up from there - that's a bit like asking why do the plants need different nutrient ratios during flowering - because that's what makes the buds big, not a good answer but you see the can of worms I'm opening. As you look through the hundreds of grow logs on the net, you will see many many people using HID's and many experiments comparing MH to HPS, HID to CFL and etc.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.


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OfflineMidgetpawn
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Re: Light position question [Re: TomCollins]
    #687051 - 10/01/13 01:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well I ordered hps and MH 400w grow lights and ballast and osme cheap gull wing hood so I just need to worry about heat now.

Of course I ordered seeds 3 days ago and the order is still "processing" from SOS. growpon11 coupon code gives you 17$ off their orders, but maybe there's a reason the deal seems too good to be true.

Anyone have bubblegum? =)


--------------------
Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


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