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OfflineTHEBats
The Bridge Master
Male


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287545 - 09/27/09 10:40 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
No I'm against government. But I'm saying that free market doesn't work because of government, that is all. Also the government today is less corrupt than it used to be. I know hard to believe, but its true.




Not with the new world order it's not.  On the small scale I can see your point.  But in the big picture I think that is not the case.  If this last administration is a testament to anything it's that the government will do what it pleases.  I forget who, I think it was condolezza rice, but she said something along the lines of it's not illegal if the president does it.  Nixon has said this as well.

EDIT:  Found the vids.





Our last true president, ie free willed, in my mind was kennedy.  It has gone downhill from there.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


Edited by THEBats (09/27/09 10:42 PM)


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OfflinePicklez
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 17,919
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Obama [Re: Blowback]
    #287566 - 09/27/09 11:03 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Blowback said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Yes I voted for him so I am slightly bias but I cant see how anyone can argue that this guy isnt trying and that he isnt already doing exponentially better than Bush

Obama became the first American to ever head a UN security council meeting and also got a unanimous vote in confronting nuclear disarmament in Iran and N. Korea 

He isnt perfect and problems wont be solved overnight, but I hes doing a good job so far given the huge number of problems he had to deal with




Ocording to the constitution a president can't be president while holding office in a foreign entity.  Thats breaking the law right there.  Not to mention the dude attended Builderburg and that is also illegal to meet with foreign officials in secret to discuss policy for America.

The dude is a scam artist who works for the banksters.  If you really think the dude has done a good job so far then you need your head examined.  The only thing he has done well so far is help his banker buddies slit this countries throat.

Welcome to the USSA comrad.




LOL, go watch some more Alex Jones. Dont forget to donate!


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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287568 - 09/27/09 11:05 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

In other political news, I cant believe Iran just test launched missiles


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InvisibleTriptonic
Male Arcade Champion: Spider Jump


Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc: Flag
Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287587 - 09/27/09 11:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Whats new? They are always fucking up. Along with N. Korea.


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OfflineBlowback

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 19
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287604 - 09/28/09 12:02 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Laugh at it.  Time will tell won't it.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287728 - 09/28/09 07:46 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
No I'm against government. But I'm saying that free market doesn't work because of government, that is all. Also the government today is less corrupt than it used to be. I know hard to believe, but its true.





a free market doesn't have any government involvement, by definition.  you can't say a free market won't work because of something that doesn't exist in said market.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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OfflineYrat
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287729 - 09/28/09 07:49 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.




you are referring to monopolies.  a common belief is that unregulated markets lead to monopolistic control.  this is not the case.  an essay from mises.org:

Quote:

Fear of Monopoly

Mises Daily by Brad Edmonds | Posted on 3/1/2001 12:00:00 AM


The Microsoft trials remind us that the fear of industrial concentration is the last refuge of socialist theory. The claim is that capitalism ultimately fails because all (or most, or at least some) industries naturally congeal into monopolies in a free market. It follows that government must regulate industries to bring about "competition." It also follows that since some people in these giant private industries become unpalatably wealthy, it is fair to confiscate their personal wealth and give it to people who are less wealthy.

The assertion that free markets lead to monopoly is wildly incorrect. If the market is allowed to work freely over time, an apparent monopolist soon discovers that it indeed has competition. A company operating in a market economy looks like a monopoly only under myopically static analysis. A broader definition of any industry will show that there is plenty of competition, just as a narrow enough definition will show that any brand name product has some monopoly characteristics, such as a popular brand of ice cream.

The airline industry is an example. There are now two manufacturers of large passenger jets: Boeing and Airbus. Punditry has expressed inevitable fears over monopoly profits and passenger safety. However, Boeing's actions in the last three years--most notably, attempts to cut costs by modernizing the entire production process --suggest that Boeing believes it has competition.

Boeing is right, and the competition is not just from Airbus. Suppose Airbus closes its doors, and only Boeing remains. Suppose also that Boeing faces no government regulation. Can Boeing raise prices at will? If it does, in the short term, people who have to travel will find alternatives to air flight in increasing numbers. Airlines would use smaller planes as much as possible. In the long term, companies such as Beechcraft and Cessna, seeing higher than normal profits available to an interloper, might build larger jets.

Consider too the electricity business: As reported by The Economist (August 2000), deregulation in many places around the world is bringing about huge changes in the industry, including movement toward smaller local producers. Most countries and communities value a pristine environment, and smaller power plants can be "greener" than large ones. And sending power over smaller distances means that local plants, with higher at-source costs, are competitive with giant, distant plants because they save the costs imposed by distance. Thus, smaller local plants may be competitive with large producers very soon.

Automobile manufacturing provides another good example. In the early, less-regulated years of the 20th century, there were dozens of small automakers, from Deusenberg to Rambler. Now, with the purchase of Chrysler by Daimler Benz, it would appear the United States is down to two. Worldwide, Ford, General Motors, Daimler Benz, BMW, and others (even Fiat!) are buying out such storied makers as Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar, and Lamborghini.

These acquisitions seem superficially to suggest that monopolies are forming. Looking more closely, we see that the four acquired companies mentioned above were all suffering financial difficulties when purchased by others, and notably, the acquired represent marques many automobile enthusiasts consider worth saving. They were purchased because they weren't making money, yet offered appealing products that should be profitable. That someone was losing money building popular cars suggests not that the industry tends toward monopoly, but that there were management shortcomings.

The automobile business continues to be stiffly competitive. Startups such as Hyundai and quasi-independent marques such as Saturn and Geo show that the high cost of entry into this capital-intensive industry is not enough to dissuade newcomers. Further, new trends such as the SUV and specialty vehicles such as the popular retro-kitsch Chrysler PT Cruiser show that even established automakers still must innovate to survive.

These three industries--planes, automobiles, and electricity--are three of the most capital intensive, and all show that when the market is free, there is no monopoly. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that your electric company decides to triple its rates. What would happen? In the short term, people would use candles for light, turn down their thermostats, and find other ways to use less power. In the longer term, we would find alternatives to our current provider, and the freer the market, the less time this would take. Economic profits attract entrepreneurs from under rocks, and some of these new competitors will offer truly good deals.

If your electric company, or Boeing, decided to raise prices arbitrarily, and customers were forced to find long-term alternatives, would there be inconvenience? Certainly. But any inconvenience would signal entrepreneurs that profits were available, and they would act. Over time, this natural market process would have us enjoying more choices, and more affordable ones. Contra Marx and Galbraith, free competition does not generate monopolies, but rather stymies them.

This is to say nothing of the inherent problems with all supposed fixes to the nonexistent problem. Antimonopoly laws create a moral hazard that tempts failing business to use regulations to beat up their competition (the Microsoft case is a good example). And the history of antitrust and its destructive effects indicate that government is incapable of doing a better job of managing shape of industry than the free market.




my summary: the very action of taking advantage of your monopolistic state opens you up to competition. by using your monopolistic position in a market to disadvantage customers, you encourage entrepreneurs to undercut you. thus, a free market actively discourages monopolies that use their situation for excessive gain. if a monopoly does form and take advantage of its customers, it is only a temporary situation before competition materializes to take advantage of the unsatisfied customer base, and the monopoly is destroyed.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,553
Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287813 - 09/28/09 03:02 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Is there a country that has a completely free economy, with no government regulations?


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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OfflineNobodyImportant
Science Is Subculture
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Registered: 05/03/08
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Re: Obama [Re: niteowl]
    #287827 - 09/28/09 03:43 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

The Internet  :shrug:


--------------------
:bonghit:
Glass By: US Tubes, ZOB, Roor.de, Sheldon Black, Jerome Baker, Medicali, Kennaroo, Sand, Alex K, Local and Unknown Artists


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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Obama [Re: NobodyImportant]
    #287829 - 09/28/09 03:50 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:ilold:

Is there a country with a free market economy
not an industry that has no government regulations :imslow:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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Offlinebobby
TheKushFiles
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Registered: 03/07/09
Posts: 529
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Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Obama [Re: niteowl]
    #287836 - 09/28/09 04:11 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

haha, I'm sure when we are done with Afghanistan I'm sure we'll try and visit Iran next. and blowback- bro u need to submit some stuff for the marketing gig these fellas are tring to put together. U can create some great stuff.


--------------------


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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,553
Re: Obama [Re: bobby]
    #287838 - 09/28/09 04:13 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

You talking ta me :confused:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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InvisibleTriptonic
Male Arcade Champion: Spider Jump


Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc: Flag
Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287893 - 09/28/09 07:25 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

Triptonic said:
It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.




you are referring to monopolies.  a common belief is that unregulated markets lead to monopolistic control.  this is not the case.  an essay from mises.org:

Quote:

Fear of Monopoly

Mises Daily by Brad Edmonds | Posted on 3/1/2001 12:00:00 AM


The Microsoft trials remind us that the fear of industrial concentration is the last refuge of socialist theory. The claim is that capitalism ultimately fails because all (or most, or at least some) industries naturally congeal into monopolies in a free market. It follows that government must regulate industries to bring about "competition." It also follows that since some people in these giant private industries become unpalatably wealthy, it is fair to confiscate their personal wealth and give it to people who are less wealthy.

The assertion that free markets lead to monopoly is wildly incorrect. If the market is allowed to work freely over time, an apparent monopolist soon discovers that it indeed has competition. A company operating in a market economy looks like a monopoly only under myopically static analysis. A broader definition of any industry will show that there is plenty of competition, just as a narrow enough definition will show that any brand name product has some monopoly characteristics, such as a popular brand of ice cream.

The airline industry is an example. There are now two manufacturers of large passenger jets: Boeing and Airbus. Punditry has expressed inevitable fears over monopoly profits and passenger safety. However, Boeing's actions in the last three years--most notably, attempts to cut costs by modernizing the entire production process --suggest that Boeing believes it has competition.

Boeing is right, and the competition is not just from Airbus. Suppose Airbus closes its doors, and only Boeing remains. Suppose also that Boeing faces no government regulation. Can Boeing raise prices at will? If it does, in the short term, people who have to travel will find alternatives to air flight in increasing numbers. Airlines would use smaller planes as much as possible. In the long term, companies such as Beechcraft and Cessna, seeing higher than normal profits available to an interloper, might build larger jets.

Consider too the electricity business: As reported by The Economist (August 2000), deregulation in many places around the world is bringing about huge changes in the industry, including movement toward smaller local producers. Most countries and communities value a pristine environment, and smaller power plants can be "greener" than large ones. And sending power over smaller distances means that local plants, with higher at-source costs, are competitive with giant, distant plants because they save the costs imposed by distance. Thus, smaller local plants may be competitive with large producers very soon.

Automobile manufacturing provides another good example. In the early, less-regulated years of the 20th century, there were dozens of small automakers, from Deusenberg to Rambler. Now, with the purchase of Chrysler by Daimler Benz, it would appear the United States is down to two. Worldwide, Ford, General Motors, Daimler Benz, BMW, and others (even Fiat!) are buying out such storied makers as Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar, and Lamborghini.

These acquisitions seem superficially to suggest that monopolies are forming. Looking more closely, we see that the four acquired companies mentioned above were all suffering financial difficulties when purchased by others, and notably, the acquired represent marques many automobile enthusiasts consider worth saving. They were purchased because they weren't making money, yet offered appealing products that should be profitable. That someone was losing money building popular cars suggests not that the industry tends toward monopoly, but that there were management shortcomings.

The automobile business continues to be stiffly competitive. Startups such as Hyundai and quasi-independent marques such as Saturn and Geo show that the high cost of entry into this capital-intensive industry is not enough to dissuade newcomers. Further, new trends such as the SUV and specialty vehicles such as the popular retro-kitsch Chrysler PT Cruiser show that even established automakers still must innovate to survive.

These three industries--planes, automobiles, and electricity--are three of the most capital intensive, and all show that when the market is free, there is no monopoly. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that your electric company decides to triple its rates. What would happen? In the short term, people would use candles for light, turn down their thermostats, and find other ways to use less power. In the longer term, we would find alternatives to our current provider, and the freer the market, the less time this would take. Economic profits attract entrepreneurs from under rocks, and some of these new competitors will offer truly good deals.

If your electric company, or Boeing, decided to raise prices arbitrarily, and customers were forced to find long-term alternatives, would there be inconvenience? Certainly. But any inconvenience would signal entrepreneurs that profits were available, and they would act. Over time, this natural market process would have us enjoying more choices, and more affordable ones. Contra Marx and Galbraith, free competition does not generate monopolies, but rather stymies them.

This is to say nothing of the inherent problems with all supposed fixes to the nonexistent problem. Antimonopoly laws create a moral hazard that tempts failing business to use regulations to beat up their competition (the Microsoft case is a good example). And the history of antitrust and its destructive effects indicate that government is incapable of doing a better job of managing shape of industry than the free market.




my summary: the very action of taking advantage of your monopolistic state opens you up to competition. by using your monopolistic position in a market to disadvantage customers, you encourage entrepreneurs to undercut you. thus, a free market actively discourages monopolies that use their situation for excessive gain. if a monopoly does form and take advantage of its customers, it is only a temporary situation before competition materializes to take advantage of the unsatisfied customer base, and the monopoly is destroyed.



No I'm not talking about monopolies. Monopolies are not supposed to happen with free market trade. The "invisible hand" is supposed to come and push monopolies down. But it doesnt and thats why free markets dont work. Also because the government cant keep its hands off things. Or put their hands on things when they need too. Like with J.D. Rockafeller the oil tycoon.


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OfflineMistaUNGA
green crack GREEN CRACK!!
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Posts: 2,382
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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287919 - 09/28/09 08:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
our government now controls our economy's housing sector, auto sector, financial sector, and is looking to take over the health sector now too.  would you like to look up the word fascism for me?


there are startling violations of the constitution occurring all around us.  meet the new boss, same as the old boss.  you think things are getting better because now the president has a (D) next to his name?  your tax dollars just got handed to the country's biggest banks on a silver platter.  the FED is monetizing the federal debt, vastly devaluing what paper money we might be able to hold onto. 

things are getting much, much worse.  remember, left vs. right = divide and conquer. 

this video is disturbing.  blatant violation of our first amendment rights.





:congrats:

and can i add fuck the UN?


--------------------
I'm an electric smoker :gc:

ExplosiveMango said:
If everyone could do mushroom, yes, it would be a wonderful world. This will never be, only some can do mushrooms. It is the responsibility of those of us who see the world most clearly to pass the clarity on to those who cannot bare to wear our lenses.

Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!


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OfflineMistaUNGA
green crack GREEN CRACK!!
Male User Gallery

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Re: Obama [Re: MistaUNGA]
    #287932 - 09/28/09 08:50 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

more fascism rising in pittsburgh



--------------------
I'm an electric smoker :gc:

ExplosiveMango said:
If everyone could do mushroom, yes, it would be a wonderful world. This will never be, only some can do mushrooms. It is the responsibility of those of us who see the world most clearly to pass the clarity on to those who cannot bare to wear our lenses.

Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!


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OfflineIrishCoffee
Smokeage
Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 31
Loc: TX
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #288290 - 09/29/09 02:43 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

obama what whaaat? 


Edited by mel_lonta_tauda (09/29/09 07:01 PM)


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OfflineDoc
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Registered: 03/27/11
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #547967 - 04/18/11 10:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

In response to the comment just two posts up on the free market and how government control messes it up. 

Do you benefit from the free market? The "Free Market" is a sham invented by corporations and only recently (within last half decade) truly implemented.
If you live in the USA surely you can see the debate about illegal immigration happening. Do you know that the problem with mexicans immigrating into USA was spawned by NAFTA the North American Free Trade Agreement, destroying traditional ways of livelihood such as traditional corn farming (In sync with GMO corn crops being introduce[read:FORCED] to mexican farmers.

NAFTA was implemented during the Clinton administration and there have been no improvements since then. Free Trade is destroying common peoples access to quality of life the whole globe over. Instead of spewing mainstream media rhetoric why don't you truly educate your self as to what free trade means for you and me and all other common working people. Or are you just a billionaire?

  We don't have much time to activate and get alert as to whats really happening, but we do have time. The economic crisis is not real in the sense that it was engineered and preventable. No we can't throw a revolution but we can wake up and realize what has to change and that is our thought patterns.


--------------------
No one is free when others are oppressed


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OfflineKing Koopa
Natty
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Re: Obama [Re: Doc]
    #547972 - 04/18/11 11:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc said:
Instead of spewing mainstream media rhetoric why don't you truly educate your self as to what free trade means for you and me and all other common working people.






Respect.


--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.


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Invisibledrawde
 Arcade Champion: Balloon Bomber

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 5,264
Re: Obama [Re: Doc]
    #547974 - 04/18/11 11:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc said:
In response to the comment just two posts up on the free market and how government control messes it up. 

Do you benefit from the free market? The "Free Market" is a sham invented by corporations and only recently (within last half decade) truly implemented.
If you live in the USA surely you can see the debate about illegal immigration happening. Do you know that the problem with mexicans immigrating into USA was spawned by NAFTA the North American Free Trade Agreement, destroying traditional ways of livelihood such as traditional corn farming (In sync with GMO corn crops being introduce[read:FORCED] to mexican farmers.

NAFTA was implemented during the Clinton administration and there have been no improvements since then. Free Trade is destroying common peoples access to quality of life the whole globe over. Instead of spewing mainstream media rhetoric why don't you truly educate your self as to what free trade means for you and me and all other common working people. Or are you just a billionaire?

  We don't have much time to activate and get alert as to whats really happening, but we do have time. The economic crisis is not real in the sense that it was engineered and preventable. No we can't throw a revolution but we can wake up and realize what has to change and that is our thought patterns.




Huh? You are arguing against the free market by citing an example of government market control or at least alterations to existing government market control failing? Sorry but your argument fails.


--------------------
King Koopa said:
The amount of pot that Gask smokes is equivalent to a guy shooting heroin on weekends


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OfflineThebooedocksaint
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Re: Obama [Re: drawde]
    #547977 - 04/18/11 11:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm pretty sure... it might be.... an argument against tariff free zones?

I dunno, I mean it made some sense as I read through it. I'll give him time to maybe rephrase it or just state his main point.

However :discorex:


--------------------
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

"Je pense, donc je suis (I am thinking, therefore I am)." -Rene Descartes

I am tired of Earth
I am tired of these people


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