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OfflineYrat
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 886
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286854 - 09/26/09 03:50 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

:facepalm:

regulations ARE the problem.  they skew otherwise natural market forces.


here's how it would work in the absence of government regulation:

-you go to bank to apply for loan
-(you don't make any money)
-bank looks at you, determines there's too much risk
-bank says "no"
-bank stays solvent

fascinating!

in a free market, risk IS the regulator.  if an institution takes on too much risk, and gambles incorrectly, it goes bankrupt and is replaced by someone not as dumb.  thus there is a naturally tendency to avoid risk and operate efficiently.  no boom/bust cycle. 

when you bailout the bankrupt gamblers with taxpayer money, do you think they learned their lesson about risk?  when you subsidize something, you always get more of it, including inadequacy and failure.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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OfflinePicklez
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286859 - 09/26/09 03:54 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

The bailout was just as much about keeping people from losing their homes as it was about bailing out the banks

This thread has gotten off topic. The only point I was trying to make was that Obama should be given some credit. It is obvious to me that he is trying to fix things but he came into Presidency at one of the worst times possible.

Obama has just had the responsibility of fixing these problems, he didnt create them


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OfflineYrat
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286862 - 09/26/09 03:58 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

are you trying to argue that people who can't afford their mortgage payments are somehow still in their homes, "saved" by the bailouts?  what??  houses are foreclosing at record rates.  the bailout didn't prevent any of that.  the banks now own a bunch of empty houses instead of mortgages.  it is clear you don't have the slightest idea of what the bailouts were designed to do.

furthermore, these are not Obama's problems to fix.  they are outside the powers of the federal government.  refer to the prior posts concerning the constitution.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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OfflinePicklez
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 17,919
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286870 - 09/26/09 04:12 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

yes, there are millions of Americans who are still in their homes because of the bailouts.

There are all kinds of programs that allow you to defer payments for 3-6 months. Programs that allow you to modify your mortgage and lock in at lower interest rates

There's even some kind of "short sell" program that allows you to sell your home for more than appraisal value right now. My parents were actually going to do this since they are moving to Houston and still have a home to sell in Phoenix.


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OfflineYrat
Happy Planting
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Posts: 886
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286872 - 09/26/09 04:19 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

so you admit that we delayed the crash until another 3-6 months when the homeowners can't pay, again.

the bailouts did nothing but prop up insolvent banks with taxpayer money so they could make their balance sheets look pretty.  that doesn't change the fact that the economy is heading deeper into the shitter, meaning less people able to pay mortgages, and deeper bank debt.  none of these problems were solved, but at least you and i now owe another $30,000 to our government for keeping us safe! (do you even pay taxes?)


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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OfflinePicklez
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 17,919
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286874 - 09/26/09 04:21 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

yeah I agree with you on that. I did earlier on in this thread. I didnt say it solved the problems at all

Well Im heading out to the bar to watch the ASU vs. Georgia game and get some grub

I hope no one has hurt feelings, just talking shit about politics. Rarely do people see eye to eye and even when they do they have different opinions.

Take it easy


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OfflinegeokillsA
······· º¿° ·······
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Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 1,282
Loc: city of angels
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days
Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286973 - 09/26/09 08:16 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:

# [Obama] Stopped raids on medical marijuana dispensers.




Unfortunately incorrect, as raids have continued in the state of California even after the Attorney General Eric Holder's statement about the administration's intention to stop the raids on medical dispensaires.  Granted, some of these raids may have been warranted as they were close to the Mexico border and may have involved Mexican trafficking cartels which would obviously be operating outside of the law (especially the tax code).  All the same, it seems that the DEA has not stopped targeting marijuana as an illegal drug.



Quote:

KillerPicklez said:

The only point I was trying to make was that Obama should be given some credit.




Obama was given a lot of credit when the American people voted him into office.

Now it's time to see what he does with it!

For my part, I believe it is way too early to judge the man's decisions. 

I don't stand by everything he has said or done - and for that matter I don't stand by everything anyone has said or done.  But I do enjoy Obama's eloquence and I believe that he is a good face for our country.  Furthermore, it seems to me that people often make the mistake of assuming "president" equates to "government".  Let's not forget that much of what the government ends up doing, while capable of being influenced by the President, is largely a product of Congress and the whole craptacular political system in general.  Way too much posturing particularly in hopes of getting re-elected, it's like a goddamn poker game and it's very difficult to get anything truly ambitious accomplished.

Anyway, I forwarded this to my family and friends after finding it on Ythan's stumbleupon page; makes me go "Hrmm..."





It is the month of August, on the shores of the Black Sea. It is raining, and the little town looks totally deserted.

It is tough times, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town.

He enters the only hotel, lays a 100 Euro note on the reception counter, and goes to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one.

The hotel proprietor takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the butcher.

The Butcher takes the 100 Euro note, and runs to pay his debt to the pig grower.

The pig grower takes the 100 Euro note, and runs to pay his debt to the supplier of his feed and fuel.

The supplier of feed and fuel takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the town's prostitute that in these hard times, gave her "services" on credit.

The hooker runs to the hotel, and pays off her debt with the 100 Euro note to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when she brought her clients there.

The hotel proprietor then lays the 100 Euro note back on the counter so that the rich tourist will not suspect anything.

At that moment, the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms, and takes his 100 Euro note, after saying that he did not like any of the rooms, and leaves town.

No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now without debt, and looks to the future with a lot of optimism.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government is doing business today.




--------------------
Do Your Part!


--------------------


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InvisibleFarBeyondDriven
Truthfully, I'm a bullshitter
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Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 13,834
Loc: Greenbow, Alabama
Re: Obama [Re: geokills]
    #287013 - 09/26/09 11:56 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

:yesnod:

:thumbup:

pretty much


--------------------



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InvisibleTriptonic
Male


Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc: Flag
Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287057 - 09/27/09 03:11 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
:facepalm:

regulations ARE the problem.  they skew otherwise natural market forces.


here's how it would work in the absence of government regulation:

-you go to bank to apply for loan
-(you don't make any money)
-bank looks at you, determines there's too much risk
-bank says "no"
-bank stays solvent

fascinating!

in a free market, risk IS the regulator.  if an institution takes on too much risk, and gambles incorrectly, it goes bankrupt and is replaced by someone not as dumb.  thus there is a naturally tendency to avoid risk and operate efficiently.  no boom/bust cycle. 

when you bailout the bankrupt gamblers with taxpayer money, do you think they learned their lesson about risk?  when you subsidize something, you always get more of it, including inadequacy and failure.




Free market doesnt work.....Its supposed to but it doesnt. I dont want to type out why unless someone thinks it does lol.


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OfflineYrat
Happy Planting
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 886
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287061 - 09/27/09 07:33 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

i think it does, and can argue for it.  show me why it doesn't.  so i guess you're openly admitting to embracing socialism?


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleTriptonic
Male


Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc: Flag
Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287403 - 09/27/09 05:41 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.


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OfflineThebooedocksaint
Dead Dictator
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Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 5,711
Loc: Wild & Free
Last seen: 4 months, 27 days
Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287407 - 09/27/09 05:47 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.




But to much government and you have problems.

Personal I prefer we stay closer to free market, but I am glad what we have is more of a mix here in the US.


--------------------
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

"Je pense, donc je suis (I am thinking, therefore I am)." -Rene Descartes

I am tired of Earth
I am tired of these people


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InvisibleTriptonic
Male


Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc: Flag
Re: Obama [Re: Thebooedocksaint]
    #287431 - 09/27/09 06:17 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly, I'm not saying that the government should have more control I'm just saying that Free Markets dont work its been proven that the government cant keep their hands off things.


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OfflineThebooedocksaint
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287451 - 09/27/09 06:30 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I know, I didn't figure you thought that. Just posting it in the thread for those economically ignorant. :tonberry:


--------------------
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

"Je pense, donc je suis (I am thinking, therefore I am)." -Rene Descartes

I am tired of Earth
I am tired of these people


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OfflineBlowback

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287504 - 09/27/09 07:30 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Yes I voted for him so I am slightly bias but I cant see how anyone can argue that this guy isnt trying and that he isnt already doing exponentially better than Bush

Obama became the first American to ever head a UN security council meeting and also got a unanimous vote in confronting nuclear disarmament in Iran and N. Korea 

He isnt perfect and problems wont be solved overnight, but I hes doing a good job so far given the huge number of problems he had to deal with




Ocording to the constitution a president can't be president while holding office in a foreign entity.  Thats breaking the law right there.  Not to mention the dude attended Builderburg and that is also illegal to meet with foreign officials in secret to discuss policy for America.

The dude is a scam artist who works for the banksters.  If you really think the dude has done a good job so far then you need your head examined.  The only thing he has done well so far is help his banker buddies slit this countries throat.

Welcome to the USSA comrad.


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OfflineTHEBats
The Bridge Master
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287527 - 09/27/09 08:08 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Obama's just a :puppet: anyways.  It really doesn't matter what you believe is right for the country, it's direction has already been chosen.

Not advocating a free market just because the government is corrupt is not a good argument. Why advocate freedom? It's only going to be diminished by government manipulation.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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InvisibleTriptonic
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Registered: 06/13/08
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Re: Obama [Re: THEBats]
    #287528 - 09/27/09 08:13 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I never said I dont advocate it dude. Dont read into things. I said it doesnt work.


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287534 - 09/27/09 08:19 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, but you basically said the free market doesn't work because the government creates regulation, thus no longer having a free market. 

I agree that a free market is not possible anymore, society is too evolved.  That said that doesn't mean it isn't the way things should be, which I got the impression I guess that you were for government regulation because of it's inevitability,


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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InvisibleTriptonic
Male


Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc: Flag
Re: Obama [Re: THEBats]
    #287539 - 09/27/09 08:27 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

No I'm against government. But I'm saying that free market doesn't work because of government, that is all. Also the government today is less corrupt than it used to be. I know hard to believe, but its true.


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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,672
Re: Obama [Re: Blowback]
    #287544 - 09/27/09 08:39 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
:facepalm:

regulations ARE the problem.  they skew otherwise natural market forces





While I agree that it is not the governments job to bail out any failing company.

To say that government regulations don't work is not entirely true

Many of the regulations the government implements are a not bad.

Don't you think that the sale of alcohol should be restricted to people over the age of 18-21. What about the sale of tobacco.

Just think about how much more money our free market economy could generate if it could sell these drugs to anyone.

I believe that there are certain industries that need some form of regulation, otherwise the public will suffer for it.

The health care industry is one of them. Insurance companies should not be able to drop you if you become sick or prevent you from being covered because of a pre-existing condition.

That is a minimal amount of regulation that will insure that everyone has an equal chance of remaining healthy.

It should be illegal for a company to profit from the suffering of people. Only government regulations can make this happen.

Quote:

Yrat said:
i think it does, and can argue for it.  show me why it doesn't.  so i guess you're openly admitting to embracing socialism?





:facepalm:

Minor government regulations does not  = socialism

Quote:

Blowback said:
Ocording to the constitution a president can't be president while holding office in a foreign entity.  Thats breaking the law right there.




Um...the UN security council is not a foreign entity, and the President of the Security Council rotates each month

The role of president of the Security Council involves setting the agenda, presiding at its meetings and overseeing any crisis. The President is authorized to issue both presidential statements (subject to consensus among Council members) and notes,[3][4] which are used to make declarations of intent that the full Security Council can then pursue.[4] The Presidency rotates monthly in alphabetical order of the Security Council member nations' names in English and is held by United States for the month of September 2009.

source


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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