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OfflinePicklez
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Obama
    #286715 - 09/26/09 11:55 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Yes I voted for him so I am slightly bias but I cant see how anyone can argue that this guy isnt trying and that he isnt already doing exponentially better than Bush

Obama became the first American to ever head a UN security council meeting and also got a unanimous vote in confronting nuclear disarmament in Iran and N. Korea 

He isnt perfect and problems wont be solved overnight, but I hes doing a good job so far given the huge number of problems he had to deal with


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286722 - 09/26/09 12:14 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

........word

:popcorn:


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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: FarBeyondDriven]
    #286723 - 09/26/09 12:16 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

You agree, disagree, dont give a fuck?


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286724 - 09/26/09 12:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Yes I voted for him so I am slightly bias but I cant see how anyone can argue that this guy isnt trying and that he isnt already doing exponentially better than Bush

Obama became the first American to ever head a UN security council meeting and also got a unanimous vote in confronting nuclear disarmament in Iran and N. Korea 

He isnt perfect and problems wont be solved overnight, but I hes doing a good job so far given the huge number of problems he had to deal with




tell me, what exactly has he done so far?




--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


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to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286727 - 09/26/09 12:21 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Here's a short list

# Signed executive orders to close the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, within a year, ban torture and end the CIA’s secret overseas prisons and define treatment of Detainees.
# Reversed restrictions on stem cell research.
# Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Reducing discrimination based on gender, age, religion, or race.
# Signed an executive order reversing the ban that prohibits funding to international family planning groups that provide abortions. Gag rule revoked (Mexico City policy).
# Creates the White House Council on Women and Girls "to provide a coordinated federal response to the challenges confronted by women and girls and to ensure that all Cabinet and Cabinet-level agencies consider how their policies and programs impact women and families."
# Signed a Presidental Memorandum extending federal benefits to same-sex partners of federal workers and announced support for the Domestic Partners Benefits and Obligations Act of 2009.
# Reverses U.S. position on LGBT Issues at the UN: At the "Durban Review Conference," U.S. supports language condemning “all forms of discrimination and all other human rights violations based on sexual orientation.”
# Signed executive order requiring federal contractors to offer jobs to current workers when contracts change.
# Reversed a Bush order requiring federal contractors to post notice that workers can limit financial support of unions serving as their exclusive bargaining representatives.
# Signed executive order preventing federal contractors from being reimbursed for expenses meant to influence workers deciding whether to form a union and engage in collective bargaining.
# Created a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners.
# Expanded eligibility for the refinancing portion of the Making Home Affordable plan to help Americans struggling with distressed mortgages refinance at lower interest rates, even if they owe up to 25 percent more than their homes are now worth.
# Established a credit card "bill of rights".
# Expanded loan programs for small businesses.
# Extended and index the 2007 Alternative Minimum Tax patch.
# Expanded eligibility for State Children's Health Insurance Fund (SCHIP).
# Expanded funding to train primary care providers and public health practitioners.
# Created a new White House task force on the problems of middle-class Americans, and installed Vice President Joe Biden as its chairman.
# Appoints Vice President Joe Biden to Oversee Stimulus Plan Payouts.
# Granted a reprieve to Liberian immigrants facing imminent expulsion.
# Directed military leaders to end war in Iraq.
# Allowing Caskets to be photographed when the return from Iraq with family approval.
# Released nine previously secret internal Justice Department memos and opinions defining the legal limits of government power in combating terrorism.
# On Arab TV Network, Obama Urges Dialogue.
# Gave a speech in Cairo engaging the Muslim and Arab world.
# Bars independent contractors from conducting interrogations of terror suspects.
# Granted Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba.
# Ordered the release of nearly a quarter of a million pages of records from the Reagan White House that were kept from the public during a lengthy review by President George W. Bush.
# Restored funding for the Byrne Justice Assistance Grant (Byrne/JAG) program.
# Released presidential records.
# Required new hires to sign a form affirming their hiring was not due to political affiliation or contributions.
# Pushed for enactment of Matthew Shepard Act, which expands hate crime law to include sexual orientation and other factors.
# Invites gay families to the Easter Egg Roll as part of the Obama administration's outreach to diverse communities.
# Created a White House Office on Urban Policy.
# Increased funding for the NEA.
# Appointed an assistant to the president for science and technology policy.
# Funded a major expansion of AmeriCorps.
# Banned lobbyist gifts to executive employees.
# Investment in all types of alternative energy.
# Enacted tax credit for consumers for plug-in hybrid cars.
# Support for high-speed rail.
# Provided grants to encourage energy-efficient building codes.
# Extended unemployment insurance benefits and temporarily suspend taxes on these benefits.
# Created the White House Council on Automotive Communities and Workers to help auto industry workers transition to new manufacturing opportunities, including jobs in alternative energy.
# Stopped raids on medical marijuana dispensers.
# Nominated Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court of the United States. If confirmed, Sotomayor would be the first Hispanic to ever serve on the Supreme Court.
# Appointed more than 60 openly LGBT persons to positions in the executive branch.
# Issues Presidential Proclamation for Pride, proclaiming June 2009 as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month.
# Signed a mercury reduction pact with 140 other nations.
# Signed the Weapons System Acquisition Reform Act to curb wasteful spending by the Pentagon. Intended to price contracts and budgets lower; may potentially save billions of dollars in defense.
# Signed the Omnibus Public Lands Management Act of 2009, which serves to protect two million acres of land and creates a new system of land conservation for the Bureau of Land Management.
# Phase out government payments to crop producers making more than $500,000 a year and eliminates subsidies for cotton storage to help trim the U.S. budget deficit.
# Cut funding for a proposed U.S. nuclear storage facility at Yucca Mountain.
# Restored Endangered Species Act Provision requiring U.S. agencies consult with independent federal experts to determine if their actions might harm threatened and endangered species.
# Orders The Chesapeake Bay Protection and Restoration "to protect and restore the health, heritage, natural resources, and social and economic value of the Nation's largest estuarine ecosystem and the natural sustainability of its watershed."
# Signed the 2009 Omnibus Public Land Management Act designating two million additional acres of public wilderness areas the highest level of government protection from logging and other forms of commercial use and development.
# Signed the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act which will expedite the search for cures and treatments for millions of Americans living with paralysis caused by spinal cord injury, stroke, MS, Parkinson's and many other diseases and disorders.
# Established The Joint Virtual Lifetime Electronic Record, a new system for updating medical records of servicemen and women both during and after their military careers.
# Established the White House Office of Health Reform
# Created new and stronger safety standards to safeguard the country's food supply.






And I think his recent accomplishments at the G20 summit are pretty important. Finally getting support from Russia and China is HUGE.

Put a little more cognitive effort into your next reply plz :smirk:


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286728 - 09/26/09 12:22 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree, we have no need to fuck with Iran, hell we're not even done in Iraq yet.

He should focus on home problems before starting more over seas ones really.

Just my opinion.

But on another note our economy can't handle another war and/or conflict right now either.


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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286732 - 09/26/09 12:26 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

We arent fucking with Iran. We are merely making them comply with IAEA standards regarding their nuclear activities so they will quit trying to scare their neighbors and so they dont force Israel to attack them. Everyone knows that if the G20 doesnt step in, Israel will launch a war on Iran. No way would Israel ever let Iran get close to having nuclear weapons

All of the G20 countries agreed with Obama on dealing with Iran. No one wants a rogue regime to have access to nuclear weapons. Hell even China and Russia agree with us on this


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OfflineCannaboid
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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286734 - 09/26/09 12:28 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Obama [Re: Cannaboid]
    #286738 - 09/26/09 12:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

THIS THREAD IS FOR SERIOUS BUSINESS ONLY



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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286741 - 09/26/09 12:35 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

On a world level yeah maybe your right like I said just an opinion.

But I believe for once the US should sit back instead of running to the front of the line.

We have big issues here, that aren't being took seriously such as this health care plan, as it stands now if passed the cost of living would increase 40% per house hold, can you afford that is that even affordable really.


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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286744 - 09/26/09 12:38 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Where are you reading these facts at Fox news? There is ridiculous amount of false information going around regarding the details of the health care plan.

I would agree but we sort of have obligations to be a world leader since we are members of the UN.

I doubt we would go to war with Iran, the point isnt to go to war. It's to pretty much bribe them to give up their nuclear program. And if they dont want to comply we impose economic sanctions on them


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OfflineNobodyImportant
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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286747 - 09/26/09 12:42 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

stoney.69 said:
On a world level yeah maybe your right like I said just an opinion.

But I believe for once the US should sit back instead of running to the front of the line.

We have big issues here, that aren't being took seriously such as this health care plan, as it stands now if passed the cost of living would increase 40% per house hold, can you afford that is that even affordable really.




" increase 40% per house hold"
reasoning behind this statement ?

not that im disagreeing with either person, I just dont know whats goin on :cactuarrun:


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Re: Obama [Re: NobodyImportant]
    #286749 - 09/26/09 12:49 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

we need to worry about ourselves before other countries. the united states has this whole...were gonna run the world thing and we need to worry about our shit and stuck the fuck outta half the shit we get into. and finish wars we started first before getting into new shit


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Obama [Re: NobodyImportant]
    #286751 - 09/26/09 12:52 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

our government now controls our economy's housing sector, auto sector, financial sector, and is looking to take over the health sector now too.  would you like to look up the word fascism for me?


there are startling violations of the constitution occurring all around us.  meet the new boss, same as the old boss.  you think things are getting better because now the president has a (D) next to his name?  your tax dollars just got handed to the country's biggest banks on a silver platter.  the FED is monetizing the federal debt, vastly devaluing what paper money we might be able to hold onto. 

things are getting much, much worse.  remember, left vs. right = divide and conquer. 

this video is disturbing.  blatant violation of our first amendment rights.



--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286753 - 09/26/09 12:52 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Where are you reading these facts at Fox news? There is ridiculous amount of false information going around regarding the details of the health care plan.

I would agree but we sort of have obligations to be a world leader since we are members of the UN.

I doubt we would go to war with Iran, the point isnt to go to war. It's to pretty much bribe them to give up their nuclear program. And if they dont want to comply we impose economic sanctions on them



The percentage thing came from a live meeting between the pres and sent heads trying to come to and understanding it was tues. or wed. this week on either C-span or one of the CNNs can't remember which one tho.

I don't watch fox news dude.

And as I said on  the world issue I could be wrong I don't know much about it really, but I myself has always been a take care of your own kind of person, and WE THE PEOPLE are in need of some now.


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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: FarBeyondDriven]
    #286757 - 09/26/09 12:56 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

This isnt 1920, we dont have the option of not being involved. And we arent going to war with Iran, just imposing a way to get them to disarm peacefully

We have about finished in Iraq. Afghanistan is another question but our numbers in Iraq are greatly reduced from what they were


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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286759 - 09/26/09 12:58 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

stoney.69 said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Where are you reading these facts at Fox news? There is ridiculous amount of false information going around regarding the details of the health care plan.

I would agree but we sort of have obligations to be a world leader since we are members of the UN.

I doubt we would go to war with Iran, the point isnt to go to war. It's to pretty much bribe them to give up their nuclear program. And if they dont want to comply we impose economic sanctions on them



The percentage thing came from a live meeting between the pres and sent heads trying to come to and understanding it was tues. or wed. this week on either C-span or one of the CNNs can't remember which one tho.

I don't watch fox news dude.

And as I said on  the world issue I could be wrong I don't know much about it really, but I myself has always been a take care of your own kind of person, and WE THE PEOPLE are in need of some now.





Ah that is weaksauce

You can't post a stat based on "i heard it on tv this week."

come on, you know better. links or its false, because there is NO WAY that is true. :crazy2:



Edited by KillerPicklez (09/26/09 01:05 PM)


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286766 - 09/26/09 01:06 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Believe what you like man, I'll see if it made youtube other wise I could care less what you wish to believe.

It is one of many reason that it isn't paying as well.


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OfflinePicklez
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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286771 - 09/26/09 01:15 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

You just dont realize how ridiculous what you said was. That means if a family is currently spending 50,000 a year to survive that they would now be required to spend 70,000. A 40% increase in COL would cripple just about everyone. That would be pretty illogical.

The details of the plan include that incomes under 100,000 a year would not be affected.


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286789 - 09/26/09 01:33 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Now I think you watching FOX, he's trying to remove the public option all together.

That is why he's losing Democrat support on this.


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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286791 - 09/26/09 01:34 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

You have no idea what you are talking about. At all

Stick to growing weed


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286795 - 09/26/09 01:39 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

That's right believe what makes you sleep well at night man.

Yrat said it best "our government now controls our economy's housing sector, auto sector, financial sector, and is looking to take over the health sector now too.  would you like to look up the word fascism for me?"

You have a nice day KP.


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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286799 - 09/26/09 01:43 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

i think i am more tired of seeing ignorant people on every side of an issue supporting an opinion they can't articulate.  These people know nothing of the ramifications of certain government action.  not to imply that I do.  I've never studied the federal legislature system or public policy so I don't know what the answer is.  And it really blows my mind how SOOO many people think they are experts.


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Re: Obama [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #286805 - 09/26/09 01:52 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Hell I'm no expert but I like watching the sent meetings.

This health care thing needs a lot of work and luck for us the congress and sent. aren't jumping the gun yet as the pres has requested them to do.

Who knows how many times it'll change before if even it gets passed.


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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286807 - 09/26/09 01:53 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286811 - 09/26/09 02:01 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.



This much I know as fact man we are in a depression anyone educated knows this.

Unemployment is higher than ever and those numbers aren't even right because when benifit run out you're on longer a number with or without job.

I will walk away from your thread at this point, so you have no need to call anyone stupid again.


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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #286817 - 09/26/09 02:12 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, you think we are in a depression :lol:

i dont think you even know what the definition of a depression is.

go trim your plants


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286819 - 09/26/09 02:14 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.





you are so naive.  the collapse is the cure for the easy money policy of bush and greenspan.  all they did was prop up the unstable economy for a bit longer with YOUR money.  it's only a matter of time until the house of cards collapses again, none of the fundamental problems have been solved.  consumption has reached record lows, savings rates have risen, and you can't have an economy that is 70% consumption keep chugging along without addressing these issues.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286822 - 09/26/09 02:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.




it doesn't matter what you think, government has no right to meddle in the economy.  that's not its job.  show me where the power to do so is delegated to it in the constitution.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286823 - 09/26/09 02:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.





you are so naive.  the collapse is the cure for the easy money policy of bush and greenspan.  all they did was prop up the unstable economy for a bit longer with YOUR money.  it's only a matter of time until the house of cards collapses again, none of the fundamental problems have been solved.  consumption has reached record lows, savings rates have risen, and you can't have an economy that is 70% consumption keep chugging along without addressing these issues.





Ok, I agree with everything you said. I never said the government fixed the problems. I was just saying the government didnt do it out of self-interest. They did it in attempts to stabilize parts of the economy that are failing

This was to the acquisition that the government was Fascist.


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286825 - 09/26/09 02:20 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.




it doesn't matter what you think, government has no right to meddle in the economy.  that's not its job.  show me where the power to do so is delegated to it in the constitution.




show me where it doesnt have the power.


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286826 - 09/26/09 02:21 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.





you are so naive.  the collapse is the cure for the easy money policy of bush and greenspan.  all they did was prop up the unstable economy for a bit longer with YOUR money.  it's only a matter of time until the house of cards collapses again, none of the fundamental problems have been solved.  consumption has reached record lows, savings rates have risen, and you can't have an economy that is 70% consumption keep chugging along without addressing these issues.





Ok, I agree with everything you said. I never said the government fixed the problems. I was just saying the government didnt do it out of self-interest. They did it in attempts to stabilize parts of the economy that are failing

This was to the acquisition that the government was Fascist.





but the sectors have to collapse in order to fix the economy.  that's how capitalism works.  businesses that do not function efficiently enough to produce a profit go under, and those that do grow into their place.  the free market system has this natural tendency to keep itself working w/o boom bust cycles.  factor in the FED however, and the picture completely changes.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286828 - 09/26/09 02:23 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
FYI, the government was forced to buy out certain sectors from stopping them from collapsing. Call it Facism if you are stupid enough to do so but anyone with an education knows the government did what it had to do in attempts to keep this country from a depression, it was hardly out of self interest that they got involved.




it doesn't matter what you think, government has no right to meddle in the economy.  that's not its job.  show me where the power to do so is delegated to it in the constitution.




show me where it doesnt have the power.




10th amendement: powers not granted to the national government nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states or the people.

constitutions limit the powers of government, they can't do anything not expressly allowed.  dude, it is clear you don't even have a very thorough understanding of government or economics.  this is made even more clear through your parroting of the obama propaganda lines.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286830 - 09/26/09 02:24 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I dont see how allowing millions of Americans to lose their homes and allowing auto manufacturers to bankrupt would be of any benefit.

Sure it is Capitalism to let them fail but can you really say what would happen if the government didnt do anything and let the banks collapse, let our manufacturing collapse, and let the housing industry sink?


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286832 - 09/26/09 02:27 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, the industries would regrow on stable footing.  things would be painful for awhile, but then ensure stability in the future.  sometimes medicine tastes bad, but you have to swallow it.

  if someone took out a mortgage on a house they couldn't afford, why do i have to bail them out with my money?


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286833 - 09/26/09 02:27 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

adam smith.


--------------------





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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286834 - 09/26/09 02:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
I dont see how allowing millions of Americans to lose their homes and allowing auto manufacturers to bankrupt would be of any benefit.

Sure it is Capitalism to let them fail but can you really say what would happen if the government didnt do anything and let the banks collapse, let our manufacturing collapse, and let the housing industry sink?





again, it's not the government's job to bail out the financial industry or homeowners.  THATS NOT ITS JOB.  just the fact it is doing so is stepping wwwaaaaayy over its bounds as set by the constitution.  the fact that in order to do so it must raise taxes (take $$ from individuals that should go to economic recovery) or print money out of thin air via the fed (which steals money from all dollars already in existence) makes the process even more disgusting.

the economy is literally being kept away FROM recovery by all this bullshit.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286835 - 09/26/09 02:31 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
  if someone took out a mortgage on a house they couldn't afford, why do i have to bail them out with my money?





I agree 100% HOWEVER, I think there should have been tighter regulations in place that prevented banks from lending to people who couldnt actually afford these homes

the banking industry is just as much to blame as greedy American people.


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286842 - 09/26/09 02:40 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

dude, it was the regulations that caused the problems to begin with.  the Community Reinvestment Act of clinton's era forced banks to lend money out to borrowers in all segments of their communities, including low- and moderate-income neighborhoods.

banks were actually required by law to write out subprime mortgages. 

regulation skews the markets and causes the problems.  giant overhead government regulation isn't the answer, it's the poison.  natural market forces are the answer to all these issues, another reason why government should have no place in any aspect of an economy.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286848 - 09/26/09 02:44 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Which is why I said there needed to be tighter regulations


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286854 - 09/26/09 02:50 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:facepalm:

regulations ARE the problem.  they skew otherwise natural market forces.


here's how it would work in the absence of government regulation:

-you go to bank to apply for loan
-(you don't make any money)
-bank looks at you, determines there's too much risk
-bank says "no"
-bank stays solvent

fascinating!

in a free market, risk IS the regulator.  if an institution takes on too much risk, and gambles incorrectly, it goes bankrupt and is replaced by someone not as dumb.  thus there is a naturally tendency to avoid risk and operate efficiently.  no boom/bust cycle. 

when you bailout the bankrupt gamblers with taxpayer money, do you think they learned their lesson about risk?  when you subsidize something, you always get more of it, including inadequacy and failure.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286859 - 09/26/09 02:54 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

The bailout was just as much about keeping people from losing their homes as it was about bailing out the banks

This thread has gotten off topic. The only point I was trying to make was that Obama should be given some credit. It is obvious to me that he is trying to fix things but he came into Presidency at one of the worst times possible.

Obama has just had the responsibility of fixing these problems, he didnt create them


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286862 - 09/26/09 02:58 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

are you trying to argue that people who can't afford their mortgage payments are somehow still in their homes, "saved" by the bailouts?  what??  houses are foreclosing at record rates.  the bailout didn't prevent any of that.  the banks now own a bunch of empty houses instead of mortgages.  it is clear you don't have the slightest idea of what the bailouts were designed to do.

furthermore, these are not Obama's problems to fix.  they are outside the powers of the federal government.  refer to the prior posts concerning the constitution.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286870 - 09/26/09 03:12 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

yes, there are millions of Americans who are still in their homes because of the bailouts.

There are all kinds of programs that allow you to defer payments for 3-6 months. Programs that allow you to modify your mortgage and lock in at lower interest rates

There's even some kind of "short sell" program that allows you to sell your home for more than appraisal value right now. My parents were actually going to do this since they are moving to Houston and still have a home to sell in Phoenix.


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286872 - 09/26/09 03:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

so you admit that we delayed the crash until another 3-6 months when the homeowners can't pay, again.

the bailouts did nothing but prop up insolvent banks with taxpayer money so they could make their balance sheets look pretty.  that doesn't change the fact that the economy is heading deeper into the shitter, meaning less people able to pay mortgages, and deeper bank debt.  none of these problems were solved, but at least you and i now owe another $30,000 to our government for keeping us safe! (do you even pay taxes?)


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #286874 - 09/26/09 03:21 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

yeah I agree with you on that. I did earlier on in this thread. I didnt say it solved the problems at all

Well Im heading out to the bar to watch the ASU vs. Georgia game and get some grub

I hope no one has hurt feelings, just talking shit about politics. Rarely do people see eye to eye and even when they do they have different opinions.

Take it easy


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #286973 - 09/26/09 07:16 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:

# [Obama] Stopped raids on medical marijuana dispensers.




Unfortunately incorrect, as raids have continued in the state of California even after the Attorney General Eric Holder's statement about the administration's intention to stop the raids on medical dispensaires.  Granted, some of these raids may have been warranted as they were close to the Mexico border and may have involved Mexican trafficking cartels which would obviously be operating outside of the law (especially the tax code).  All the same, it seems that the DEA has not stopped targeting marijuana as an illegal drug.



Quote:

KillerPicklez said:

The only point I was trying to make was that Obama should be given some credit.




Obama was given a lot of credit when the American people voted him into office.

Now it's time to see what he does with it!

For my part, I believe it is way too early to judge the man's decisions. 

I don't stand by everything he has said or done - and for that matter I don't stand by everything anyone has said or done.  But I do enjoy Obama's eloquence and I believe that he is a good face for our country.  Furthermore, it seems to me that people often make the mistake of assuming "president" equates to "government".  Let's not forget that much of what the government ends up doing, while capable of being influenced by the President, is largely a product of Congress and the whole craptacular political system in general.  Way too much posturing particularly in hopes of getting re-elected, it's like a goddamn poker game and it's very difficult to get anything truly ambitious accomplished.

Anyway, I forwarded this to my family and friends after finding it on Ythan's stumbleupon page; makes me go "Hrmm..."





It is the month of August, on the shores of the Black Sea. It is raining, and the little town looks totally deserted.

It is tough times, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town.

He enters the only hotel, lays a 100 Euro note on the reception counter, and goes to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one.

The hotel proprietor takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the butcher.

The Butcher takes the 100 Euro note, and runs to pay his debt to the pig grower.

The pig grower takes the 100 Euro note, and runs to pay his debt to the supplier of his feed and fuel.

The supplier of feed and fuel takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the town's prostitute that in these hard times, gave her "services" on credit.

The hooker runs to the hotel, and pays off her debt with the 100 Euro note to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when she brought her clients there.

The hotel proprietor then lays the 100 Euro note back on the counter so that the rich tourist will not suspect anything.

At that moment, the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms, and takes his 100 Euro note, after saying that he did not like any of the rooms, and leaves town.

No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now without debt, and looks to the future with a lot of optimism.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government is doing business today.




--------------------
Do Your Part!


--------------------


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Re: Obama [Re: geokills]
    #287013 - 09/26/09 10:56 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:yesnod:

:thumbup:

pretty much


--------------------



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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287057 - 09/27/09 02:11 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
:facepalm:

regulations ARE the problem.  they skew otherwise natural market forces.


here's how it would work in the absence of government regulation:

-you go to bank to apply for loan
-(you don't make any money)
-bank looks at you, determines there's too much risk
-bank says "no"
-bank stays solvent

fascinating!

in a free market, risk IS the regulator.  if an institution takes on too much risk, and gambles incorrectly, it goes bankrupt and is replaced by someone not as dumb.  thus there is a naturally tendency to avoid risk and operate efficiently.  no boom/bust cycle. 

when you bailout the bankrupt gamblers with taxpayer money, do you think they learned their lesson about risk?  when you subsidize something, you always get more of it, including inadequacy and failure.




Free market doesnt work.....Its supposed to but it doesnt. I dont want to type out why unless someone thinks it does lol.


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287061 - 09/27/09 06:33 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

i think it does, and can argue for it.  show me why it doesn't.  so i guess you're openly admitting to embracing socialism?


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287403 - 09/27/09 04:41 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287407 - 09/27/09 04:47 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.




But to much government and you have problems.

Personal I prefer we stay closer to free market, but I am glad what we have is more of a mix here in the US.


--------------------
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

"Je pense, donc je suis (I am thinking, therefore I am)." -Rene Descartes

I am tired of Earth
I am tired of these people


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Re: Obama [Re: Thebooedocksaint]
    #287431 - 09/27/09 05:17 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly, I'm not saying that the government should have more control I'm just saying that Free Markets dont work its been proven that the government cant keep their hands off things.


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287451 - 09/27/09 05:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I know, I didn't figure you thought that. Just posting it in the thread for those economically ignorant. :tonberry:


--------------------
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

"Je pense, donc je suis (I am thinking, therefore I am)." -Rene Descartes

I am tired of Earth
I am tired of these people


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287504 - 09/27/09 06:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Yes I voted for him so I am slightly bias but I cant see how anyone can argue that this guy isnt trying and that he isnt already doing exponentially better than Bush

Obama became the first American to ever head a UN security council meeting and also got a unanimous vote in confronting nuclear disarmament in Iran and N. Korea 

He isnt perfect and problems wont be solved overnight, but I hes doing a good job so far given the huge number of problems he had to deal with




Ocording to the constitution a president can't be president while holding office in a foreign entity.  Thats breaking the law right there.  Not to mention the dude attended Builderburg and that is also illegal to meet with foreign officials in secret to discuss policy for America.

The dude is a scam artist who works for the banksters.  If you really think the dude has done a good job so far then you need your head examined.  The only thing he has done well so far is help his banker buddies slit this countries throat.

Welcome to the USSA comrad.


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287527 - 09/27/09 07:08 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Obama's just a :puppet: anyways.  It really doesn't matter what you believe is right for the country, it's direction has already been chosen.

Not advocating a free market just because the government is corrupt is not a good argument. Why advocate freedom? It's only going to be diminished by government manipulation.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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Re: Obama [Re: THEBats]
    #287528 - 09/27/09 07:13 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I never said I dont advocate it dude. Dont read into things. I said it doesnt work.


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287534 - 09/27/09 07:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, but you basically said the free market doesn't work because the government creates regulation, thus no longer having a free market. 

I agree that a free market is not possible anymore, society is too evolved.  That said that doesn't mean it isn't the way things should be, which I got the impression I guess that you were for government regulation because of it's inevitability,


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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Re: Obama [Re: THEBats]
    #287539 - 09/27/09 07:27 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

No I'm against government. But I'm saying that free market doesn't work because of government, that is all. Also the government today is less corrupt than it used to be. I know hard to believe, but its true.


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Re: Obama [Re: Blowback]
    #287544 - 09/27/09 07:39 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
:facepalm:

regulations ARE the problem.  they skew otherwise natural market forces





While I agree that it is not the governments job to bail out any failing company.

To say that government regulations don't work is not entirely true

Many of the regulations the government implements are a not bad.

Don't you think that the sale of alcohol should be restricted to people over the age of 18-21. What about the sale of tobacco.

Just think about how much more money our free market economy could generate if it could sell these drugs to anyone.

I believe that there are certain industries that need some form of regulation, otherwise the public will suffer for it.

The health care industry is one of them. Insurance companies should not be able to drop you if you become sick or prevent you from being covered because of a pre-existing condition.

That is a minimal amount of regulation that will insure that everyone has an equal chance of remaining healthy.

It should be illegal for a company to profit from the suffering of people. Only government regulations can make this happen.

Quote:

Yrat said:
i think it does, and can argue for it.  show me why it doesn't.  so i guess you're openly admitting to embracing socialism?





:facepalm:

Minor government regulations does not  = socialism

Quote:

Blowback said:
Ocording to the constitution a president can't be president while holding office in a foreign entity.  Thats breaking the law right there.




Um...the UN security council is not a foreign entity, and the President of the Security Council rotates each month

The role of president of the Security Council involves setting the agenda, presiding at its meetings and overseeing any crisis. The President is authorized to issue both presidential statements (subject to consensus among Council members) and notes,[3][4] which are used to make declarations of intent that the full Security Council can then pursue.[4] The Presidency rotates monthly in alphabetical order of the Security Council member nations' names in English and is held by United States for the month of September 2009.

source


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287545 - 09/27/09 07:40 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
No I'm against government. But I'm saying that free market doesn't work because of government, that is all. Also the government today is less corrupt than it used to be. I know hard to believe, but its true.




Not with the new world order it's not.  On the small scale I can see your point.  But in the big picture I think that is not the case.  If this last administration is a testament to anything it's that the government will do what it pleases.  I forget who, I think it was condolezza rice, but she said something along the lines of it's not illegal if the president does it.  Nixon has said this as well.

EDIT:  Found the vids.





Our last true president, ie free willed, in my mind was kennedy.  It has gone downhill from there.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


Edited by THEBats (09/27/09 07:42 PM)


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Re: Obama [Re: Blowback]
    #287566 - 09/27/09 08:03 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Blowback said:
Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Yes I voted for him so I am slightly bias but I cant see how anyone can argue that this guy isnt trying and that he isnt already doing exponentially better than Bush

Obama became the first American to ever head a UN security council meeting and also got a unanimous vote in confronting nuclear disarmament in Iran and N. Korea 

He isnt perfect and problems wont be solved overnight, but I hes doing a good job so far given the huge number of problems he had to deal with




Ocording to the constitution a president can't be president while holding office in a foreign entity.  Thats breaking the law right there.  Not to mention the dude attended Builderburg and that is also illegal to meet with foreign officials in secret to discuss policy for America.

The dude is a scam artist who works for the banksters.  If you really think the dude has done a good job so far then you need your head examined.  The only thing he has done well so far is help his banker buddies slit this countries throat.

Welcome to the USSA comrad.




LOL, go watch some more Alex Jones. Dont forget to donate!


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287568 - 09/27/09 08:05 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

In other political news, I cant believe Iran just test launched missiles


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287587 - 09/27/09 08:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Whats new? They are always fucking up. Along with N. Korea.


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Re: Obama [Re: Picklez]
    #287604 - 09/27/09 09:02 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Laugh at it.  Time will tell won't it.


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287728 - 09/28/09 04:46 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
No I'm against government. But I'm saying that free market doesn't work because of government, that is all. Also the government today is less corrupt than it used to be. I know hard to believe, but its true.





a free market doesn't have any government involvement, by definition.  you can't say a free market won't work because of something that doesn't exist in said market.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #287729 - 09/28/09 04:49 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Triptonic said:
It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.




you are referring to monopolies.  a common belief is that unregulated markets lead to monopolistic control.  this is not the case.  an essay from mises.org:

Quote:

Fear of Monopoly

Mises Daily by Brad Edmonds | Posted on 3/1/2001 12:00:00 AM


The Microsoft trials remind us that the fear of industrial concentration is the last refuge of socialist theory. The claim is that capitalism ultimately fails because all (or most, or at least some) industries naturally congeal into monopolies in a free market. It follows that government must regulate industries to bring about "competition." It also follows that since some people in these giant private industries become unpalatably wealthy, it is fair to confiscate their personal wealth and give it to people who are less wealthy.

The assertion that free markets lead to monopoly is wildly incorrect. If the market is allowed to work freely over time, an apparent monopolist soon discovers that it indeed has competition. A company operating in a market economy looks like a monopoly only under myopically static analysis. A broader definition of any industry will show that there is plenty of competition, just as a narrow enough definition will show that any brand name product has some monopoly characteristics, such as a popular brand of ice cream.

The airline industry is an example. There are now two manufacturers of large passenger jets: Boeing and Airbus. Punditry has expressed inevitable fears over monopoly profits and passenger safety. However, Boeing's actions in the last three years--most notably, attempts to cut costs by modernizing the entire production process --suggest that Boeing believes it has competition.

Boeing is right, and the competition is not just from Airbus. Suppose Airbus closes its doors, and only Boeing remains. Suppose also that Boeing faces no government regulation. Can Boeing raise prices at will? If it does, in the short term, people who have to travel will find alternatives to air flight in increasing numbers. Airlines would use smaller planes as much as possible. In the long term, companies such as Beechcraft and Cessna, seeing higher than normal profits available to an interloper, might build larger jets.

Consider too the electricity business: As reported by The Economist (August 2000), deregulation in many places around the world is bringing about huge changes in the industry, including movement toward smaller local producers. Most countries and communities value a pristine environment, and smaller power plants can be "greener" than large ones. And sending power over smaller distances means that local plants, with higher at-source costs, are competitive with giant, distant plants because they save the costs imposed by distance. Thus, smaller local plants may be competitive with large producers very soon.

Automobile manufacturing provides another good example. In the early, less-regulated years of the 20th century, there were dozens of small automakers, from Deusenberg to Rambler. Now, with the purchase of Chrysler by Daimler Benz, it would appear the United States is down to two. Worldwide, Ford, General Motors, Daimler Benz, BMW, and others (even Fiat!) are buying out such storied makers as Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar, and Lamborghini.

These acquisitions seem superficially to suggest that monopolies are forming. Looking more closely, we see that the four acquired companies mentioned above were all suffering financial difficulties when purchased by others, and notably, the acquired represent marques many automobile enthusiasts consider worth saving. They were purchased because they weren't making money, yet offered appealing products that should be profitable. That someone was losing money building popular cars suggests not that the industry tends toward monopoly, but that there were management shortcomings.

The automobile business continues to be stiffly competitive. Startups such as Hyundai and quasi-independent marques such as Saturn and Geo show that the high cost of entry into this capital-intensive industry is not enough to dissuade newcomers. Further, new trends such as the SUV and specialty vehicles such as the popular retro-kitsch Chrysler PT Cruiser show that even established automakers still must innovate to survive.

These three industries--planes, automobiles, and electricity--are three of the most capital intensive, and all show that when the market is free, there is no monopoly. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that your electric company decides to triple its rates. What would happen? In the short term, people would use candles for light, turn down their thermostats, and find other ways to use less power. In the longer term, we would find alternatives to our current provider, and the freer the market, the less time this would take. Economic profits attract entrepreneurs from under rocks, and some of these new competitors will offer truly good deals.

If your electric company, or Boeing, decided to raise prices arbitrarily, and customers were forced to find long-term alternatives, would there be inconvenience? Certainly. But any inconvenience would signal entrepreneurs that profits were available, and they would act. Over time, this natural market process would have us enjoying more choices, and more affordable ones. Contra Marx and Galbraith, free competition does not generate monopolies, but rather stymies them.

This is to say nothing of the inherent problems with all supposed fixes to the nonexistent problem. Antimonopoly laws create a moral hazard that tempts failing business to use regulations to beat up their competition (the Microsoft case is a good example). And the history of antitrust and its destructive effects indicate that government is incapable of doing a better job of managing shape of industry than the free market.




my summary: the very action of taking advantage of your monopolistic state opens you up to competition. by using your monopolistic position in a market to disadvantage customers, you encourage entrepreneurs to undercut you. thus, a free market actively discourages monopolies that use their situation for excessive gain. if a monopoly does form and take advantage of its customers, it is only a temporary situation before competition materializes to take advantage of the unsatisfied customer base, and the monopoly is destroyed.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287813 - 09/28/09 12:02 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Is there a country that has a completely free economy, with no government regulations?


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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Re: Obama [Re: niteowl]
    #287827 - 09/28/09 12:43 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

The Internet  :shrug:


--------------------
:bonghit:
Glass By: US Tubes, ZOB, Roor.de, Sheldon Black, Jerome Baker, Medicali, Kennaroo, Sand, Alex K, Local and Unknown Artists


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Re: Obama [Re: NobodyImportant]
    #287829 - 09/28/09 12:50 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:ilold:

Is there a country with a free market economy
not an industry that has no government regulations :imslow:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-


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Re: Obama [Re: niteowl]
    #287836 - 09/28/09 01:11 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

haha, I'm sure when we are done with Afghanistan I'm sure we'll try and visit Iran next. and blowback- bro u need to submit some stuff for the marketing gig these fellas are tring to put together. U can create some great stuff.


--------------------


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Re: Obama [Re: bobby]
    #287838 - 09/28/09 01:13 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

You talking ta me :confused:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
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that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287893 - 09/28/09 04:25 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

Triptonic said:
It doesnt work because there is invisible hand that is supposed to push down companys when they become to big. Also because the government cant stay out of anyting. It has been proven in history that it just doesnt work. I just learned about it lol.




you are referring to monopolies.  a common belief is that unregulated markets lead to monopolistic control.  this is not the case.  an essay from mises.org:

Quote:

Fear of Monopoly

Mises Daily by Brad Edmonds | Posted on 3/1/2001 12:00:00 AM


The Microsoft trials remind us that the fear of industrial concentration is the last refuge of socialist theory. The claim is that capitalism ultimately fails because all (or most, or at least some) industries naturally congeal into monopolies in a free market. It follows that government must regulate industries to bring about "competition." It also follows that since some people in these giant private industries become unpalatably wealthy, it is fair to confiscate their personal wealth and give it to people who are less wealthy.

The assertion that free markets lead to monopoly is wildly incorrect. If the market is allowed to work freely over time, an apparent monopolist soon discovers that it indeed has competition. A company operating in a market economy looks like a monopoly only under myopically static analysis. A broader definition of any industry will show that there is plenty of competition, just as a narrow enough definition will show that any brand name product has some monopoly characteristics, such as a popular brand of ice cream.

The airline industry is an example. There are now two manufacturers of large passenger jets: Boeing and Airbus. Punditry has expressed inevitable fears over monopoly profits and passenger safety. However, Boeing's actions in the last three years--most notably, attempts to cut costs by modernizing the entire production process --suggest that Boeing believes it has competition.

Boeing is right, and the competition is not just from Airbus. Suppose Airbus closes its doors, and only Boeing remains. Suppose also that Boeing faces no government regulation. Can Boeing raise prices at will? If it does, in the short term, people who have to travel will find alternatives to air flight in increasing numbers. Airlines would use smaller planes as much as possible. In the long term, companies such as Beechcraft and Cessna, seeing higher than normal profits available to an interloper, might build larger jets.

Consider too the electricity business: As reported by The Economist (August 2000), deregulation in many places around the world is bringing about huge changes in the industry, including movement toward smaller local producers. Most countries and communities value a pristine environment, and smaller power plants can be "greener" than large ones. And sending power over smaller distances means that local plants, with higher at-source costs, are competitive with giant, distant plants because they save the costs imposed by distance. Thus, smaller local plants may be competitive with large producers very soon.

Automobile manufacturing provides another good example. In the early, less-regulated years of the 20th century, there were dozens of small automakers, from Deusenberg to Rambler. Now, with the purchase of Chrysler by Daimler Benz, it would appear the United States is down to two. Worldwide, Ford, General Motors, Daimler Benz, BMW, and others (even Fiat!) are buying out such storied makers as Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar, and Lamborghini.

These acquisitions seem superficially to suggest that monopolies are forming. Looking more closely, we see that the four acquired companies mentioned above were all suffering financial difficulties when purchased by others, and notably, the acquired represent marques many automobile enthusiasts consider worth saving. They were purchased because they weren't making money, yet offered appealing products that should be profitable. That someone was losing money building popular cars suggests not that the industry tends toward monopoly, but that there were management shortcomings.

The automobile business continues to be stiffly competitive. Startups such as Hyundai and quasi-independent marques such as Saturn and Geo show that the high cost of entry into this capital-intensive industry is not enough to dissuade newcomers. Further, new trends such as the SUV and specialty vehicles such as the popular retro-kitsch Chrysler PT Cruiser show that even established automakers still must innovate to survive.

These three industries--planes, automobiles, and electricity--are three of the most capital intensive, and all show that when the market is free, there is no monopoly. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that your electric company decides to triple its rates. What would happen? In the short term, people would use candles for light, turn down their thermostats, and find other ways to use less power. In the longer term, we would find alternatives to our current provider, and the freer the market, the less time this would take. Economic profits attract entrepreneurs from under rocks, and some of these new competitors will offer truly good deals.

If your electric company, or Boeing, decided to raise prices arbitrarily, and customers were forced to find long-term alternatives, would there be inconvenience? Certainly. But any inconvenience would signal entrepreneurs that profits were available, and they would act. Over time, this natural market process would have us enjoying more choices, and more affordable ones. Contra Marx and Galbraith, free competition does not generate monopolies, but rather stymies them.

This is to say nothing of the inherent problems with all supposed fixes to the nonexistent problem. Antimonopoly laws create a moral hazard that tempts failing business to use regulations to beat up their competition (the Microsoft case is a good example). And the history of antitrust and its destructive effects indicate that government is incapable of doing a better job of managing shape of industry than the free market.




my summary: the very action of taking advantage of your monopolistic state opens you up to competition. by using your monopolistic position in a market to disadvantage customers, you encourage entrepreneurs to undercut you. thus, a free market actively discourages monopolies that use their situation for excessive gain. if a monopoly does form and take advantage of its customers, it is only a temporary situation before competition materializes to take advantage of the unsatisfied customer base, and the monopoly is destroyed.



No I'm not talking about monopolies. Monopolies are not supposed to happen with free market trade. The "invisible hand" is supposed to come and push monopolies down. But it doesnt and thats why free markets dont work. Also because the government cant keep its hands off things. Or put their hands on things when they need too. Like with J.D. Rockafeller the oil tycoon.


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OfflineMistaUNGA
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Re: Obama [Re: Yrat]
    #287919 - 09/28/09 05:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
our government now controls our economy's housing sector, auto sector, financial sector, and is looking to take over the health sector now too.  would you like to look up the word fascism for me?


there are startling violations of the constitution occurring all around us.  meet the new boss, same as the old boss.  you think things are getting better because now the president has a (D) next to his name?  your tax dollars just got handed to the country's biggest banks on a silver platter.  the FED is monetizing the federal debt, vastly devaluing what paper money we might be able to hold onto. 

things are getting much, much worse.  remember, left vs. right = divide and conquer. 

this video is disturbing.  blatant violation of our first amendment rights.





:congrats:

and can i add fuck the UN?


--------------------
I'm an electric smoker :gc:

ExplosiveMango said:
If everyone could do mushroom, yes, it would be a wonderful world. This will never be, only some can do mushrooms. It is the responsibility of those of us who see the world most clearly to pass the clarity on to those who cannot bare to wear our lenses.

Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!


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Re: Obama [Re: MistaUNGA]
    #287932 - 09/28/09 05:50 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

more fascism rising in pittsburgh



--------------------
I'm an electric smoker :gc:

ExplosiveMango said:
If everyone could do mushroom, yes, it would be a wonderful world. This will never be, only some can do mushrooms. It is the responsibility of those of us who see the world most clearly to pass the clarity on to those who cannot bare to wear our lenses.

Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!


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OfflineIrishCoffee
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Re: Obama [Re: Stoneth]
    #288290 - 09/29/09 11:43 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

obama what whaaat? 


Edited by mel_lonta_tauda (09/29/09 04:01 PM)


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Re: Obama [Re: Triptonic]
    #547967 - 04/18/11 07:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

In response to the comment just two posts up on the free market and how government control messes it up. 

Do you benefit from the free market? The "Free Market" is a sham invented by corporations and only recently (within last half decade) truly implemented.
If you live in the USA surely you can see the debate about illegal immigration happening. Do you know that the problem with mexicans immigrating into USA was spawned by NAFTA the North American Free Trade Agreement, destroying traditional ways of livelihood such as traditional corn farming (In sync with GMO corn crops being introduce[read:FORCED] to mexican farmers.

NAFTA was implemented during the Clinton administration and there have been no improvements since then. Free Trade is destroying common peoples access to quality of life the whole globe over. Instead of spewing mainstream media rhetoric why don't you truly educate your self as to what free trade means for you and me and all other common working people. Or are you just a billionaire?

  We don't have much time to activate and get alert as to whats really happening, but we do have time. The economic crisis is not real in the sense that it was engineered and preventable. No we can't throw a revolution but we can wake up and realize what has to change and that is our thought patterns.


--------------------
No one is free when others are oppressed


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OfflineKing Koopa
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Re: Obama [Re: Doc]
    #547972 - 04/18/11 08:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Doc said:
Instead of spewing mainstream media rhetoric why don't you truly educate your self as to what free trade means for you and me and all other common working people.






Respect.


--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.


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Invisibledrawde
 Arcade Champion: Balloon Bomber

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 5,264
Re: Obama [Re: Doc]
    #547974 - 04/18/11 08:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Doc said:
In response to the comment just two posts up on the free market and how government control messes it up. 

Do you benefit from the free market? The "Free Market" is a sham invented by corporations and only recently (within last half decade) truly implemented.
If you live in the USA surely you can see the debate about illegal immigration happening. Do you know that the problem with mexicans immigrating into USA was spawned by NAFTA the North American Free Trade Agreement, destroying traditional ways of livelihood such as traditional corn farming (In sync with GMO corn crops being introduce[read:FORCED] to mexican farmers.

NAFTA was implemented during the Clinton administration and there have been no improvements since then. Free Trade is destroying common peoples access to quality of life the whole globe over. Instead of spewing mainstream media rhetoric why don't you truly educate your self as to what free trade means for you and me and all other common working people. Or are you just a billionaire?

  We don't have much time to activate and get alert as to whats really happening, but we do have time. The economic crisis is not real in the sense that it was engineered and preventable. No we can't throw a revolution but we can wake up and realize what has to change and that is our thought patterns.




Huh? You are arguing against the free market by citing an example of government market control or at least alterations to existing government market control failing? Sorry but your argument fails.


--------------------
King Koopa said:
The amount of pot that Gask smokes is equivalent to a guy shooting heroin on weekends


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OfflineThebooedocksaint
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Re: Obama [Re: drawde]
    #547977 - 04/18/11 08:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I'm pretty sure... it might be.... an argument against tariff free zones?

I dunno, I mean it made some sense as I read through it. I'll give him time to maybe rephrase it or just state his main point.

However :discorex:


--------------------
"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

"Je pense, donc je suis (I am thinking, therefore I am)." -Rene Descartes

I am tired of Earth
I am tired of these people


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