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OfflineSloppy
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Growing organically
    #816080 - 06/29/16 11:20 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Hey guys, I used the search function, didn't find too much I thought another thread would be appropriate.

How many of you guys grow completely organically? Using only unferted organic soil, and other additives such as coir, castings, clay, microbial fungus, mushroom compost, etc? Letting the pH of the soil be maintained by proper symbiosis between the plant and it's soil? I know there have been studies, on plant biology vs the chemistry of fertilization and artificial pH balance. Just wondering any of you hippies out there that are going this route, or know of people who have with success. If so, post em up! I'm trying to see some au-natural quality nug from some pros!

Also, please discuss pros and cons if you feel so inclined.. Any thoughts in general?


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InvisibleDeadkndys420
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Sloppy]
    #816095 - 06/30/16 01:43 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

I'm pretty sure mag did a side by side test and found growing organically doesn't improve flavor any more than using synthetics.


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Deadkndys420]
    #816097 - 06/30/16 02:01 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)



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Re: Growing organically [Re: Sloppy]
    #816104 - 06/30/16 05:24 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

I don't think you need to feed organic, the plant only uptakes the nutrients in their ionic form, the form readily available in hydroponic nutrients. Soil is just a method to break down compounds down to their elemental, ionic form right next to the plant.

Soil is a living, breathing ecosystem, not just dirt. Managing that, or getting it dialed in can be extremely tricky, and everyone's soil tends to be different. In a field, there is different composition throughout the same soil just a few feet away, depending on a lot of factors such as slope, angle to sun, etc.. It develops over time to form clumps (aggregates) and is overall a very complex system. There are a lot of factors that effect soil quality and composition.

Soil in a pot is not quite fully soil, but more comparable to taking a bucket of ocean water home, filling a fish tank and expecting your expensive fish to thrive in it. Sure, they might have that perfect mix, but odds are you want to make a tank of ocean-water with some store bought salts and be able to control which bacteria and microbes your fish are exposed to. With a bag of soil your taking some random soil, sometimes amended heavily or just a poor mix that is not able to meet the demands of the specific plant. Not to say that you can't get a good quality mix from a bag, just that its not as easy to find great soil.


Organic pest control on the other hand is very important. It is what most people think of when they are talking about organic, not the feed method. Pesticides are not good for consumption, and will be concentrated when making BHO or other extracts.


The real problem with nutrients (elemental salts/ions) is the environmental impact with large scale industrial use. They mine/harvest nutrient salts which has its own impacts on depleting finite resources, but the overuse and misuse lead to nutrient run off in waterways and such.

Overall organic farming on a large scale will be important for the health of the planet, whereas just growing plants for the maximum potency and yield on a small scale you'll probably be better off growing hydroponically.


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OfflineSloppy
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Magash]
    #816110 - 06/30/16 09:37 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Deadkndys420 said:
Organic pest control on the other hand is very important. It is what most people think of when they are talking about organic, not the feed method. Pesticides are not good for consumption, and will be concentrated when making BHO or other extracts.






This is a good point.

And Magash, I did see your compare thread. It is interesting. As growers though, growing for patients or dispensaries and not just personal use, can you even try and argue that if you try and tell a user that it will go in one ear and out the other? There is a big market for organic buds, because people enjoy the idea that they know for sure what is going into their bodies doesn't have any chems. Me personally, I thought the idea of organic was just like that and not about taste. I would actually imagine that if someone beefed up the nutes and the fertilizers, they could make a pretty crazy tasting product.

I'm talking about the idea of what we in mush cult call "set and forget." You use a proven and tested (or test and prove your own) organic super soil mixture, have symbiosis between the plant, the microbes, and the soil balance the pH by itself and basically just have the plants grow themselves.

I'm quoting my friend big bear on this, who brought up a pretty convincing point through expert opinion.

Quote:

BB said:To me it's counter intuitive to work against nature.  In nature, a healthy soil contains and helps transfer the ammendments to the plants on the plants schedule.  The fungal and microbial life allows for the nutrients to flow freely.  Understand this and you already understand way more than most folks.

Here's a post explaining it by someone way smarter than me...the guy who wrote teaming with microbes incidentally

Quote:


Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels

The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.







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InvisibleNevar44
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Registered: 12/28/15
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Sloppy]
    #816113 - 06/30/16 10:25 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Organic pesticides can still leave residue on ur flowers that's isn't good to smoke

Ozonated water, sprayed onto your plant via pump sprayer or atomizer is the only all organic pesticide that leaves zero residue and u can apply it up to three times per day it works beautifully

If I was u, I'd pick up an "aqua 6" ozone generator from "A2z ozone" save urself the headaches when problems do arise trust me

Everyone here should have one

I will not use anything else. Took back the neem I bought w out ever using it. I'll never spray anything that'll leave residues on plant unless it was life or death. And I'd prob choose death over spraying shit that'll leave residues

It costs $70. Last years, and will make gallons and gallons and gallons of pesticide that won't fuck up ur smoke and u can spray it directly onto flowers. Just soak the flowers if u want lol.. the ozone kills spores and fungi so powder mildew isn't a worry. Spray up until the last day of harvest if u NEEDED to...

I do think the ozone may oxidize some of your thc ect, but better to POSSIBLY (I'M NOT SURE IT WOULD OXIDIZE ANYTHING ON THE PLANT) oxidize some of the good than to have mites or pm destroying ur flowers


Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 10:32 AM)


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OfflineSloppy
Be Positive

Registered: 06/27/16
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816115 - 06/30/16 10:29 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Thanks for the tip! :super:


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InvisibleNevar44
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Sloppy]
    #816117 - 06/30/16 10:35 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

My bb and AO thread going atm, those plants had thrips when they went into flower.

But I've kept the thrips in check and numbers are near zero always. No thrip damage in sight for weeks. I can only spot a few adults. Anythung small like spores and eggs gets wiped out quick it seems. Larger bugs r more resilient to it but they'll go w multiple applications I think

Either way it saved my crop from any more major thrip damage and my smoke is still gonna be lovely. No residues


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OfflineSloppy
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816118 - 06/30/16 10:49 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Ok so, what do you do with the ozinated water? You said a pump sprayer works to spray on the plants? What makes the ozinated water work?



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Edited by Sloppy (06/30/16 10:51 AM)


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InvisibleNevar44
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Sloppy]
    #816119 - 06/30/16 11:21 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Ozone, o3... it's the same stuff that composes our ozone layer in the atmosphere

Look into the commercial grape growing industry. The use of ozone is rather new. It was suppresses in the past. Not a lot of info on it yet. Make sure the article u read is talking about OZINATED WATER. Not just a ozone generator for the room, and NOT a UV ozone system for the water. That's way different and can't be used as a pesticide. A UV ozone system does not infuse the water w ozone it only sterilizes the water via ozone. Much different

It's more gentle than hydrogen peroxide yet more effective. It oxidizes

It sterilizes.. literally

Some water is purified via ozonation. Look at the method used to purify the distilled water at the store next time

I told baronsamedi about it, he had root rot. Told him he wouldn't regret the purchase and he loves it he said

It'll wipe out bacteria


Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 11:33 AM)


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816127 - 06/30/16 01:56 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Have anything to back this up man?


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OfflineSloppy
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #816128 - 06/30/16 02:13 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Cause something organic and accessible that can wipe out bacteria and pesticide just by oxidating water is a pretty insane notion. But if it's got merit, that's amazing! Not to mention I could think of a few uses for that in mush cult as well..


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InvisibleNevar44
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #816132 - 06/30/16 03:29 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Hawksresurrection said:
Have anything to back this up man?




The Internet will back it up, user baronsamedi will also.

It's out, look into the commercial grape industry like I said. They use ozinated wayer like I said. Also simply research ozone itself.... u will see...

My own personal experience also to back it up, i haven't had it long but hold it HIGHLY. So does baronsamedi. He had root rot. He treated w h2o2... then ozinated water when his machine arrived. Root rot gone roots looked better than ever i think he said.

I've read h2o2 won't cure root rot but I cannot say.

I don't need to back it up, u can yourself if u no whay I mean just look into it :smile:

It is amazing. Commercial grape growers have called it a no brainer. I would also


Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 03:35 PM)


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InvisibleNevar44
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816133 - 06/30/16 03:32 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

It's very effective at wiping out unicellular organisms. Fungi is unicellular

I haven't messed w it for growing fungi I know whay u mean tho. I prob never will either cause how I grow fungi now works so..

Yes these are large statements, is it too good to be true? Nahhhh

Is it a cure all? Not quite but almost I think


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Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 03:36 PM)


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816135 - 06/30/16 04:44 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Okay, if you're going to make a claim, back it up.  Don't just tell people to go research it.  You are asking us to believe you, but not wrong to post links to any data


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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

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InvisibleNevar44
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #816141 - 06/30/16 06:53 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Ugggghhhhh, I've told u enough man. U don't belive me..

Sooooo... Apparently YOU need to look into it understand it like I did initially since it's so foreign to us at first

U want links, u fucking got it. I'll do the work for u pal. Should be simple enough with what I've already stated imo.

Links coming just for u.

I never told u to belive me, I provided basic info about fucking ozone. U made it clear u r in disbelief by saying do I have proof. Like I'm saying got 20 lbs from one light..that needs proof.

This I'm sry does NOT. When I was told about it. I just knew to belive the guy prior. Soo time came, bugs came, I looked it up..

Here is the scoop, there isn't a lot of info out on it but there is enough. It's newer.. hard to find good info on it so maybe I do need to help... I guess. U kinda need to understand ozone. Then u will know how to use ozinated water. I'm not supporting A2z ozone there are other companies making units that function in the same manner buy whatever one u like.

http://www.agriozein.com/press-releases/us-news-media/ozonated-water-replaces-chemicals-in-more-vineyards

http://maximumyield.com/blog/2014/01/01/ozone-a-growroom-super-tool/

U will like that one more so maybe. Ozonated water is covered at the bottom of the page.

I provide enough info as is. I don't have speedy Internet I use a slow 3g phone and hate being called out.

U acted like I'm trying to sell u on this or something. Nah. Just providing u the best pesticide info imo I understand not believing it coming from me but as I stated before. This needs not be proved a simpleasure search can do so. I'm not claiming anything too crazy for peats sake.

https://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/808785

last few posts of this thread he got one pg 10 or 11 i think

Don't tell people to do their own research huh? Interesting. Very interesting. Lemme know if u need more proof in the form of Internet links. Gladly can find more.


Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 07:55 PM)


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OfflineSloppy
Be Positive


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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816143 - 06/30/16 08:22 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

So how long does the water stay ozonated? Does it have a shelf life or would you need to carry that thing around with you while you spray down your plants.

I'm gonna get this thing now purely for it's disinfecting properties. Not only would it be more effective than soap water for SAB work, but if you were ever having contam issues in your mush cult work you just could give the room a ozone spritz down and it's 1000x more effective than bleach? I'm sold just on that. Plus it's organic pesticide features are a plus indeed.

I appreciate the links man, while the information you are trying to spread is fresh. I didn't have time to look around for the right links. I don't think he was trying to jump down your throat, this is just some information that even a trusted cultivated wasn't familiar with, so clearly some hand holding might be necessary :smirk:


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Edited by Sloppy (06/30/16 08:24 PM)


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InvisibleNevar44
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Sloppy]
    #816144 - 06/30/16 08:43 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Check out the links

Thr ozone has a half life of 20-30 min

Make up the water, use immediately. It lasts for 20-30 min in the water. No u don't tote the machine around. U make up however much water u need fir the job. Use it.. if u run outta water u make more after the machine gets a 15 min break at least. Then finish the job

The inconvenience is u have to reapply often. I'm down w thag trade off thiu

And yes, I'm told to use ozone rather than bleach for sanitization purposes haven't fully switched over tho lol


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Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 08:48 PM)


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Growing organically [Re: Nevar44]
    #816146 - 06/30/16 09:28 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Twenty pounds from one light?  Now I know you're full of shit.

Even if ozone works, you're blowing smoke up our ass.


And don't get so defensive.  If you are going to make claims, be ready to be questioned.  It's part how progress is made.    When a researcher puts up a theory, they are expected to provide evidence to back it up, not tell the everyone to go look it up.  Get a grip.


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


Edited by Hawksresurrection (06/30/16 09:37 PM)


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InvisibleNevar44
Stranger

Registered: 12/28/15
Posts: 532
Loc: west/east WA
Re: Growing organically [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #816150 - 06/30/16 09:57 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Lmfao....

Wowwwwwww, obviously no one gets twenty from a light lmao. Might wanna re-read thag again.

Forgive my sloppy text. Point was IF someone claimed 20 per light. That needs proof. I never claimed that by ANY means my friend that's funny

What I've stated today doesn't it can be verified via Internet anyone had that capability. That's the point. Ur acting like I'm making an Un verifiable claim and making a fool of yourself in my eyes.

U apparently once again didn't understand what I said. Lpl

Im over it, u can lead a horse to water they say

Look at urself and what ur saying. U need to get a grip. This isn't NEW. Maybe if it was a theory I'd back it up.

There is plenty info out about it ur being lazy. There is no need for me to prove anything your crazy

What u want me to do bend over backwards for you some more fuck? I don't deal w challenging disbelief well when I've provided enough info as is.

Don't act like I'm trying to sell u something when in not. Take it or leave it. When links ARE due I provide them. Lets.get real here seriously lmao.. Don't tell ME to get a grip here That's funny

Sry for spamming ur thread OP, I'm out. Nothing else to say here.


Edited by Nevar44 (06/30/16 10:11 PM)


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