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InvisibleiStoner
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 7,176
Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM]
    #579042 - 08/17/11 06:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Why does it matter?


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OfflineI_AM_SWIM
Someone Who Isn't McKenna

Registered: 06/08/09
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: iStoner]
    #579056 - 08/17/11 07:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

iStoner said:
Why does it matter?




It doesn't and I never said it did.


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OfflineI_AM_SWIM
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM]
    #579058 - 08/17/11 07:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

It's just a question I'm curious about.
I'm not trying to find an answer, since I don't think there is one, rather
I made a thread so we could discuss the subject. If you don't wish to partake, then
you don't have to.

I know some atheists that don't give me a straight answer. They simply don't know anything
just like the rest of us.

Ultimately it doesn't matter (How would I know this?), but in some regards it could matter (How could I possibly know this?).
That is, if you think living in a more peaceful environment with less violence in the
world, matters. Then there is a reason for you.

Most violence stems from death anxiety, and differences in belief systems. Wars have been
waged because of religion for millenia. Even if the concept of impermanence is a truth about
the world we live in, I don't see it being a good enough reason to develop a nihilistic
attitude.


































































:ancientaliens:


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OfflineManitou
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Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 7,100
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM] * 1
    #579069 - 08/17/11 09:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have to say that MOST of the wars caused by religion views are caused by monotheist religions, since they are the dominant ones, also, they are the ones who attempt to convert more and more people, that is something that polytheist religions don't do, except maybe for Hinduism, but I am not quite sure about that.

Polytheist religions are spread all over the world, they will never try to convert people because that to them, it is not a religion, but a way of living, they live their religion every day, every experiences that will occur, they are mostly really open to other beliefs, for example, when the missionaries tried to convert some Africans, the natives would just say that Christians "God" will just enter the pantheon and have fun with the other gods and goddess, he would eventually find a wife and have children, that just horrified the missionaries.

I personally don't see religions as a bad thing, I will never try to defend monotheist religions, but i believe that we have a LOT to learn from any religion, all we need to do, is have an open mind, and stop trying separate the world instead of getting all along together. I see atheism as a religion, they believe in something, which is science, but they believe it in a way that a christian would believe in "God", it is just my point of view, so don't start hating :borat:


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Pour un instant, j'ai respiré très fort
Ça m'a permis de visiter mon corps
Des inconnus vivent en roi chez moi
Moi qui avait accepté leurs lois
J'ai perdu mon temps à gagner du temps
J'ai besoin de me trouver une histoire à me conter
Pour instant j'ai oublié mon nom
Harmonium - Pour un instant
--------------------------------------------


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OfflineTHEBats
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM] * 1
    #579094 - 08/17/11 11:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I_AM_SWIM said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
I don't know of any atheist that would profess to know that there is no God.  We just don't believe in one, it has nothing to do with knowing which is why I dislike the term agnostic. Even Richard Dawkins would not profess absolute certainty against the existence of God.




Well there must be a reason why atheists do not believe in a god, and that reason most
likely is that the facts are strong against such a beings existence. They don't have to
profess that they know there is no god, it's their belief that is key here.

They believe that there is no god, and how could they be so sure? Especially since most
atheists are scientifically grounded?

To me it sounds like Richard Dawkins leans more on the agnostic side, since he even claims
that he isn't certain.




You forget atheism is the disbelief of God.  It has nothing to do with knowing God doesn't exists.  Or certainty.  We don't believe in God not because there is so much evidence against it, though evidence of evolution ect obviously influences these concepts, but it has more to do with the lack of evidence on the part of religious people.

As I mentioned before, in science the burden of proof is upon those who make the claim.  God is no different than fairies or unicorns.  Are you also agnostic about these entities?  Just because you can't disprove the existence of something doesn't mean it makes sense to be agnostic about it's existence. If I make a claim there's an invisible dragon in my garage that can't be detected by any scientific means, therefore making it impossible to disprove, would it make sense to hold out in your mind the possibility that there really is an invisible dragon that can't be detected in any way living in my garage?


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


Edited by THEBats (08/18/11 12:00 AM)


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OfflineCage
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Registered: 01/13/11
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: THEBats]
    #579095 - 08/18/11 12:09 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Fuck, you're right. I guess there's no need to add on "agnostic" bullshit to any part of it. It's just pretty much a term for not being fully decided. How the fuck did I manage to misread the absence of belief in a diety, for belief of the absence of a diety.. This is why I quit drinking, but it's hard to keep that in line while living in the motherland :facepalm:


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: Cage]
    #579105 - 08/18/11 12:34 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well most people hold that view towards atheism I think.


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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OfflineI_AM_SWIM
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Registered: 06/08/09
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: THEBats]
    #579161 - 08/18/11 11:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:If I make a claim there's an invisible dragon in my garage that can't be detected by any scientific means, therefore making it impossible to disprove, would it make sense to hold out in your mind the possibility that there really is an invisible dragon that can't be detected in any way living in my garage?




It probably wouldn't make any 'sense', but I would still hold onto the 'possibility' of
their being an invisible dragon. It's not that I don't believe or do believe, it's just
that reality is too strange for me to know or believe in anything.

I think it would be highly unlikely, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility.
It's the same thing as ghosts, aliens, etc.

And I guess this is where the term 'atheist agnostic' comes from.

But I wouldn't dismiss the belief in 'God', because I wouldn't even have the belief in
'God' to begin with. I would just know of the concept, and think it's a 50/50 shot of being
true in the long run.

I think if such things were to exist, they would be similar to Jung's archetypes, so that
whatever is 'alien' represents something that is 'foreign' to us, or ghosts representing
the unknown of death. I think this is true with all entities people apparently encounter,
even regular people. I don't think they are outside ourselves as much as they are
inside ourselves. Then again, I'm sort of a solipsist, but I don't dismiss the possibility
of solipsism being false.


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:tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna::tmckenna:


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OfflineI_AM_SWIM
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Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1,337
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: Manitou]
    #579164 - 08/18/11 11:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gaskelort said:I see atheism as a religion, they believe in something, which is science, but they believe it in a way that a christian would believe in "God", it is just my point of view, so don't start hating :borat:




Ernest Becker would agree with you that science is a form of religion,

"When Norman O. Brown said that Western society since Newton, no matter how scientific or
secular it claims to be, is still as “religious” as any other, this is what he meant:
“civilized” society is a hopeful belief and protest that science, money and goods make man
count for more than any other animal. In this sense everything that man does is religious and
heroic, and yet in danger of being fictitious and fallible."


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OfflineTHEBats
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM]
    #579168 - 08/18/11 12:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I_AM_SWIM said:
Quote:

THEBats said:If I make a claim there's an invisible dragon in my garage that can't be detected by any scientific means, therefore making it impossible to disprove, would it make sense to hold out in your mind the possibility that there really is an invisible dragon that can't be detected in any way living in my garage?




It probably wouldn't make any 'sense', but I would still hold onto the 'possibility' of
their being an invisible dragon. It's not that I don't believe or do believe, it's just
that reality is too strange for me to know or believe in anything.

I think it would be highly unlikely, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility.
It's the same thing as ghosts, aliens, etc.

And I guess this is where the term 'atheist agnostic' comes from.

But I wouldn't dismiss the belief in 'God', because I wouldn't even have the belief in
'God' to begin with. I would just know of the concept, and think it's a 50/50 shot of being
true in the long run.

I think if such things were to exist, they would be similar to Jung's archetypes, so that
whatever is 'alien' represents something that is 'foreign' to us, or ghosts representing
the unknown of death. I think this is true with all entities people apparently encounter,
even regular people. I don't think they are outside ourselves as much as they are
inside ourselves. Then again, I'm sort of a solipsist, but I don't dismiss the possibility
of solipsism being false.




And that's where the logic capabilities of a religious person and that of an atheist differs.  Or at least how they should differ.  I've known atheists who believe in some pretty out there stuff despite dismissing the notion of God.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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OfflineTHEBats
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: THEBats] * 1
    #579176 - 08/18/11 12:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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OfflineI_AM_SWIM
Someone Who Isn't McKenna

Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1,337
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Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: THEBats]
    #579210 - 08/18/11 04:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
And that's where the logic capabilities of a religious person and that of an atheist differs.  Or at least how they should differ.  I've known atheists who believe in some pretty out there stuff despite dismissing the notion of God.




True, but I don't know if this applies to Christian apologists.

I think quantum mechanics alone is already some 'far out' stuff, the whole notion of
photons being both virtual electrons and virtual positrons at certain moments in time is
pretty nuts. I think this is a reason why when people talk about quantum mechanics, they
usually appear as crack-pots.

I have to bring up C.S Lewis, when he says,

Quote:

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the
appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of
Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the
accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the
materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e.,
Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to
be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a
correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken
by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug
was made and why it was upset.




I think that even logic itself is faulty, especially when we run into paradoxes, such as
'The following statement is true, the preceding statement is false.' -- since there are two
logical statements that result in absurdity. Or the famous 'This statement is false.'
paradox.

I'm pretty sure that if we critically analyze either views from atheists or theists, that
we can find contradictions on either side of the table, and this is why I don't understand
why neither of them don't claim to be agnostic.

I remember a friend once told me, 'I believe that agnostic's usually end up becoming
atheists later on down the road.', I don't see how this could be the case. If we are
constantly skeptical about things, then doesn't that automatically mean that we are 'giving
in' to the unknown and claiming ourselves agnostics unwillingly, whether or not we are
aware of it?


Quote:

THEBats said:





Beautiful video, I'm definitely going to spread this across the internet. :thumbup:
"If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.


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OfflineCage
Melancholy Mindfuck.


Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 645
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM]
    #579214 - 08/18/11 04:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, thank you for posting that video theBATS, and thank you I_AM_SWIM for pointing out how great it was. I made the mistake of disregarding it and not watching it at first. Glad I did :thumbup:


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OfflineI_AM_SWIM
Someone Who Isn't McKenna

Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1,337
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: Cage]
    #579222 - 08/18/11 05:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Also I think it should be mentioned that state atheism also has its share in bloodshed as
well. So it's probably not right to put the blame of violence, war, and genocide on
religions alone, but also governments that suppress religious freedom.

So I realized how ignorant my previous posts were when thinking that religion is the cause
for the majority of violence and wars. Certainly it has its role to play, but it's not the
sole factor. Perhaps it's 'belief' in general which is more closer to the core of the
problem, but I guess when we get down to the 'nitty gritty', it's ultimately our own fear
of death which leads us to forming a belief system to ease death anxiety.

But I don't know, I'm just speculating, however, I do know that I don't want to die. :tongue2:

Quote:

While many countries no longer follow state atheism, a 2004 book by Author Allen
Hertzke (issued in paperback in 2006) asserted that China, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea and
Cuba, despite some economic liberalization, continued to persecute the religious.[66].


Freeing God's Children:The Unlikely Alliance for Global Human Rights


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OfflineTHEBats
The Bridge Master
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Atheists ... ? [Re: I_AM_SWIM]
    #579297 - 08/18/11 10:54 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Glad you guys liked the video.  And yes, religion is not the true cause of violence, it is merely a tool.  It is however a very powerful tool, manipulating sometimes unknowingly but willingly it's followers.  Ultimately I think it creates a social extension for our tendency towards racial prejudice.  As much as many people may believe they respect followers of different religions there will almost always be an underlying prejudice, ultimately they would nearly always have a higher opinion of the other person if they shared the same viewpoint in regards of religion. 

In a way this also starts at the genetic level.  Your genes are designed to survive.  Likewise they protect those more genetically similar.  Save a white guy or a black guy?  If you're white you would save the white guy.  He's more genetically similar.  Save your daughter or your son?  Most likely your son because he can pass on your genes many more times potentially.  Or so the theory goes.

Kind of got off there, but I do find it interesting how even at the cellular level our behavior is influenced.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:


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