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OfflineRascax
Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 2
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Marijunana Propogation Question
    #191779 - 02/03/09 03:08 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hey guys, so I have heard that taking clones from clones will eventually result in a totally undesirable plant. So, could I keep a plant alive solely for the use of cloning without encountering any genetic problems down the line?


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OfflineKine

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 374
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Rascax]
    #191781 - 02/03/09 03:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Lol... They call them Mother Plants.  Its a plant that if done right can produce massive ammounts of clones for several years...


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OfflineRascax
Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 2
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Kine]
    #191782 - 02/03/09 03:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Awesome, thanks for the quick reply.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Rascax]
    #191809 - 02/03/09 07:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

check out this thread by Annom, it describes the whole process of growing and selecting a mother plant.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Offlinemrspirit
man with spirit
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 64
Loc: hithertither
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Rascax]
    #191833 - 02/03/09 11:55 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I have never heard that, can someone validate the truth to this statement/question?


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Offlinejohnnyblaze2316
mr.
Male
Registered: 12/11/08
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: mrspirit]
    #191878 - 02/03/09 02:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

they say start new moms every year, but imo/e they will provide longer than that, as long as you let them recoup and keep her healthy.


--------------------
CALIFORNIA PROP 215 MEDICINAL CANNABIS PATIENT!!!


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OfflineAnnom
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Rascax]
    #191883 - 02/03/09 02:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

so I have heard that taking clones from clones will eventually result in a totally undesirable plant.



I'm not sure if this is true. I've heard many stories of people who always make clones from clones and never saw any decrease in quality. I'm sceptical unless someone provides some evidence for this theory.
Quote:

So, could I keep a plant alive solely for the use of cloning without encountering any genetic problems down the line?



Yes, that's what most do.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Annom]
    #191909 - 02/03/09 04:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i'd bet that the further you go down the lines of clone-from-clone-from-clone-etc the greater your chances of somehow altering the DNA (from so many cell-divisons), but the chance of that happening is still extreeemely small.

i wouldn't worry about it.  however, it is much easier to grow a mother and take clones from her.  i imagine that it is a lot less work compared to regrowing a mother-plant over and over and over.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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OfflineNibin

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 21
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Yrat]
    #191920 - 02/03/09 05:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The cells of a mother plant have also sustained many divisions if kept for a long while and harvested continually.

Luckily for us plants have amazing DNA repairing mechanisms and have a greater control on telomere length so they can basically keep on growing pretty much indefinately if given the right conditions. This is probably due to the fact that a plant can't substitute old cells for newer ones once they die due to the presence of cell walls. For example, if one of your liver cells dies, the next door cell will divide and that cell will be replaced. In plants if a cell dies it still has a cell wall covering it so no other cell can move in to take its place. So each cell in the bottom inch of your plant, for example, will have been there since the plant stopped growing at that height.

I have seen invitro cultivations of relatively old plant tissues spring to life like young buds once the right hormone stimuli were present.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Nibin]
    #191926 - 02/03/09 06:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
The cells of a mother plant have also sustained many divisions if kept for a long while and harvested continually.





right, but they all grow from one main base, all "second-generation" clones if you will.  by going from clone to clone to clone, you add an extra generation of cloning at each step, from 2 to 3, to 14 if you carried it on long enough.  you could potentially have a lot more "generations" of cell divisions. 

again, the chance of any abnormality surfacing is still exceedingly small, but the chance of it occuring at all is somewhat greater compared to the mother->clone process.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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OfflineKine

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 374
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Yrat]
    #191961 - 02/03/09 08:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I can understand the theory... i know with mushrooms you can really only G2G so much before the cells just stop.  I forgot to ask the gardener (i work with a green house lol) about this today!  But i will find out a deffinite answer.... but i agree with the theory that cloneing a clone leads to inbreeds... ewww...


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Offlinemrspirit
man with spirit
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 64
Loc: hithertither
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Kine]
    #191966 - 02/03/09 09:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

g2g is not a cloning :crazy2:


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OfflineKine

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 374
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: mrspirit]
    #191971 - 02/03/09 09:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

no, but still a concept that makes me believe it.  Its the theory... nothing in concrete yet.  But i like to try and relate something i DONT know to something i DO know to try and hypothesize my opinion...

I was just saying i can understand where that comes from... because of things like G2G having a stopping point...


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Offlinemrspirit
man with spirit
Registered: 01/24/09
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Loc: hithertither
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Kine]
    #191977 - 02/03/09 09:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Right, I understand why you said that. I was just reminding you :smile:


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OfflineKine

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 374
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Kine]
    #191980 - 02/03/09 09:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well, after some research, i found this!  http://www.gardenscure.com/420/propagation/36713-over-cloning.html One guy says...

"If you clone the clone you will lose some vigor and bud size, but not much. If you clone the clone of the clone of the clone etc etc, you will lose much of the desired traits, and end up with as you said crap weed."

Then it said to check out another thread but i dont wana sign up to gain the search function to find the other thread... lol.  sry... anyone care to do such?

It makes sense sort of... Because while it may have the same genetics i personally think it sort of stresses it and you loose traits and such.  Cause i always wanted to do SOG with no mothers... just about 2-3 weeks into flower take a clone or two from each plant... boom... new crop.  But i cant find any evidence of this being done and such...


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Offlineyellownotepad
Pharmaceutical Agriculturalist
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Registered: 06/22/08
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Kine]
    #192116 - 02/04/09 01:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

what you guys are talking about is called senescence, and it doesnt happen in weed clones from what i've read, and my experience with taking clones of clones of clones of clones of clones.


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Offlinemrspirit
man with spirit
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 64
Loc: hithertither
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: yellownotepad]
    #192154 - 02/04/09 02:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Straight from the horses mouth, there ya have it.

I trust yellownotepad's word, and I have no reason to.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: mrspirit]
    #192178 - 02/04/09 07:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mrspirit said:
I trust yellownotepad's word, and I have no reason to.




:confused:


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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Offlinemrspirit
man with spirit
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 64
Loc: hithertither
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Yrat]
    #192202 - 02/04/09 01:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Me too Yrat, me too. :crazy2:


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InvisibleDr. Penguin
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: mrspirit]
    #192208 - 02/04/09 02:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Lol, this is a long conversation with no answer. May I step in? I am a plant biology grad student and deal with this sort of question every day.

Senesence in fungi and animals (related to age) is very different than in plants (where it is related to the cycle of loosing leaves based on environmental factors) , so lets get rid of the term for now.

Nibin was spot on when he described the DNA repair mechanisms in plants as related to their age. Unlike most organisms, plant cells will not stop dividing after a certain number of divisions which is what causes genetic aging in in these other organisms. What this means is that under perfect conditions plants can age indefinitely.

Now no system is perfect, but in practice, a mother plant will continue to produce fantastic clones for it's entire life span without any mutation or degraded performance.


--------------------
* My Cab
* How to Build a Grow Tent
* Fan Speed Control 101
* Easy Butane Extraction

Not responsible for advice not taken.


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Offlineyellownotepad
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #192214 - 02/04/09 02:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

and in addition to what you said dr. p, you can take clones of clones of clones of clones, with no issues (at least as far as i've gone which is 5-6 times taking a clone of a clone)


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Anonymous

Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #192219 - 02/04/09 02:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. Penguin said:

Now no system is perfect, but in practice, a mother plant will continue to produce fantastic clones for it's entire life span without any mutation or degraded performance.




I think we all understand this... but we're excluding mothers.  Its like doing perpetual harvest, but the clones are taken from clones... then the next set of clones come from the clones you have... that way those with med cards dont have to use a plant that they can have with a mother, you throw it in to be one more bud bearer...


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OfflineNibin

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 21
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #192222 - 02/04/09 03:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. Penguin said:
Lol, this is a long conversation with no answer. May I step in? I am a plant biology grad student and deal with this sort of question every day.

Senesence in fungi and animals (related to age) is very different than in plants (where it is related to the cycle of loosing leaves based on environmental factors) , so lets get rid of the term for now.

Nibin was spot on when he described the DNA repair mechanisms in plants as related to their age. Unlike most organisms, plant cells will not stop dividing after a certain number of divisions which is what causes genetic aging in in these other organisms. What this means is that under perfect conditions plants can age indefinitely.

Now no system is perfect, but in practice, a mother plant will continue to produce fantastic clones for it's entire life span without any mutation or degraded performance.




High five Penguin!!

I'm an agricultural engineering student. Lots and lots of plant physiology for me :grin:


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Nibin]
    #192231 - 02/04/09 04:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

biochemistry, cellular and molecular biology here.


we should all go start a farm/country together somewhere.

:yesnod:


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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InvisibleDr. Penguin
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Yrat]
    #192235 - 02/04/09 04:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
biochemistry, cellular and molecular biology here.


we should all go start a farm/country together somewhere.

:yesnod:




I'm down for a commune.

Btw, I :heart: biology.
(What type of RNA is responsible for ribosomal recognition of initiation codons in mRNA?)


--------------------
* My Cab
* How to Build a Grow Tent
* Fan Speed Control 101
* Easy Butane Extraction

Not responsible for advice not taken.


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OfflineYrat
Happy Planting
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #192250 - 02/04/09 06:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

is that a trick question?  ribosomes recognize and interact with mRNA, for protein synthesis, not DNA.


--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root"
~ Henry D. Thoreau
Strike The Root
                                                                                      :gethigh:


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InvisibleMagashM
The Feminizer
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Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,633
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Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Yrat]
    #192282 - 02/04/09 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, whatever guys. I do know this. I have mothers from the early 90s that are putting out buds just like they did then. Sensi seeds has mother plants that are over 25 years old.


--------------------
All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?


:growingweed: Join us at the Growery! :growingweed:


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OfflineKine

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 374
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Marijunana Propogation Question [Re: Magash]
    #192498 - 02/05/09 03:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Magash said:
Ok, whatever guys. I do know this. I have mothers from the early 90s that are putting out buds just like they did then. Sensi seeds has mother plants that are over 25 years old.




So do you have a 25th or older generation plant though?  That will end this conversation once and for all.  Its been proven a mother can provide awesome perfect clones for years.

So tell me this; do you have a plant growing right now that was a clone, of a clone, of a clone, of a clone, of a clone, of the mother?  IE Growing a cutting from that mother for a year... taking a clone from that plant, let it grow for a year, then taken a cutting from the clone that was taken from the clone from the mother.

Thats where i think things CAN, but dont always screw up...


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