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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Isn't extinction a good thing?
    #358005 - 02/05/10 12:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I was watching this video about the Vampire squid

It is an interesting lil 3 min clip about
an ancient fish living in the deep ocean

At the end the commentator says something about the
need for humans to stop the extinction of species

If evolution is real then isn't extinction part of it
shouldn't some species go extinct if they can't adapt

:strokebeard:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358006 - 02/05/10 12:14 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I was watching this video about the Vampire squid

It is an interesting lil 3 min clip about
an ancient fish living in the deep ocean

At the end the commentator says something about the
need for humans to stop the extinction of species

If evolution is real then isn't extinction part of it
shouldn't some species go extinct if they can't adapt

:strokebeard:




Well I think a lot of Ocean wild life is in danger of extinction because of humans (which in fact was mentioned in the video as the reason behind the vampire squids decreasing numbers.) In any case, even if this is not the case, I can't help but feel that, since we are the only ones capable of preventing extinction of a species, we have an obligation to do so.

It's not necessarily fair to say if an animal can't adapt then it should die, when our actions are what is causing the species to die off. That would be like saying we shouldn't help polar bears in the arctic  because they can't grow fins fast enough to adapt to the heavy melting caused by global warming.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Edited by TomCollins (02/05/10 12:22 PM)

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Invisiblemhbound
Ballin out at all cost
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 8,144
Loc: High Flag
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358008 - 02/05/10 12:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Hay spency

And...If you can't keep up then GTFO of my planet


--------------------
Suck my balls America

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358009 - 02/05/10 12:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

IF certain animals didnt go extinct we wouldnt be here today


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

Edited by niteowl (02/05/10 12:22 PM)

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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358011 - 02/05/10 12:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
IF certain animals didnt go extinct we wouldnt be here today




Why what? Sorry I added more to my post.

--EDIT--

Niteowl origionally asked "Why?" However it seems my post and his have been changed for unknown reasons. :shrug:


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Edited by TomCollins (02/08/10 02:36 AM)

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358012 - 02/05/10 12:25 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Spency said:
It's not necessarily fair to say if an animal can't adapt then it should die, when our actions are what is causing the species to die off. That would be like saying we shouldn't help polar bears in the arctic  because they can't grow fins fast enough to adapt to the heavy melting caused by global warming.




:lol:

At humans causing global warming.

The planet has gone through warm and cold periods WELL before humans came on the scene.
If polar bears survived then and cant now...its time to go extinct :sorry:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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OfflineTHEBats
The Bridge Master
Male


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358013 - 02/05/10 12:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Extinction can be a good thing in the long term, but in the short term an extinction, at least in the manner we are accelerating it, can cause the collapse of an ecosystem and cause not just one species to become extinct but many.

Life will continue though so really are only concern for extinction lies in our own selfish needs and desires.  People are constantly concerned for polar bears but they serve but one small part in the big picture.


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/05/10 12:29 PM)

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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358017 - 02/05/10 12:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Spency said:
It's not necessarily fair to say if an animal can't adapt then it should die, when our actions are what is causing the species to die off. That would be like saying we shouldn't help polar bears in the arctic  because they can't grow fins fast enough to adapt to the heavy melting caused by global warming.




:lol:

At humans causing global warming.

The planet has gone through warm and cold periods WELL before humans came on the scene.
If polar bears survived then and cant now...its time to go extinct :sorry:




This is an extremely biased view I hope you know. Especially with all the compelling evidence there is to support the notion that pollution has an adverse effect on planetary temperature and the various ecosystems.

This put aside, we should at the very least accept that we honestly can not say for sure whether the changes that are occurring on the planet are caused by us or natural causes. Ergo, we should try and prevent extinction because it may in fact be our doing.

Ecosystems are extremely delicate and even minor changes can have adverse butterfly effects.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
cannoisseur
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal Flag
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358020 - 02/05/10 12:40 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Spency said:
It's not necessarily fair to say if an animal can't adapt then it should die, when our actions are what is causing the species to die off. That would be like saying we shouldn't help polar bears in the arctic  because they can't grow fins fast enough to adapt to the heavy melting caused by global warming.




:lol:

At humans causing global warming.

The planet has gone through warm and cold periods WELL before humans came on the scene.
If polar bears survived then and cant now...its time to go extinct :sorry:





If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural. sure in the past there have been wide range temperature fluctuations, but the speed of the current trend is thousands of times faster than anything experienced in the past. additionally, we can say with 100% certainty that CO2, methane and water vapor are extremely potent greenhouse gases so it's a rather logical conclusion that dumping thousands of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is going to have a discernible impact.


--------------------

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358022 - 02/05/10 12:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My POV is no more biased than yours man.

Extinction is a FACT of life no way around that.

If the Vampire squid survived for over 350 million years .....
and cant adapt to the current changes.....its time to go

If a house/factory/town is build and some rare field mouse becomes extinct

:ohwell:

Life sux then you die.

Do I think we need to take care of our environment ... :yesnod:

Do I think it is our responsibility to prevent the extinction of random rare species ... :noway:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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InvisibleInverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star Flag
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #358027 - 02/05/10 12:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Spency said:
It's not necessarily fair to say if an animal can't adapt then it should die, when our actions are what is causing the species to die off. That would be like saying we shouldn't help polar bears in the arctic  because they can't grow fins fast enough to adapt to the heavy melting caused by global warming.




:lol:

At humans causing global warming.

The planet has gone through warm and cold periods WELL before humans came on the scene.
If polar bears survived then and cant now...its time to go extinct :sorry:





If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural. sure in the past there have been wide range temperature fluctuations, but the speed of the current trend is thousands of times faster than anything experienced in the past. additionally, we can say with 100% certainty that CO2, methane and water vapor are extremely potent greenhouse gases so it's a rather logical conclusion that dumping thousands of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is going to have a discernible impact.




QFT

I went to a lecture at the U a couple of years ago on this subject.

The local weather men/women/meteorologist were there along with some other scientists that have published in the scientific journal.

Anyways long story short, they basically said what you did Harry, that yes it's all natural to have warm and cold periods, but not at exponential rates like we are experiencing.  A few degrees change in a couple hundred years is definitely not normal.  Maybe over 10,000 years or more...


--------------------
Don't criticize what you can't understand

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Inverted]
    #358032 - 02/05/10 12:57 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

All the numbers collected in the past 20 years are skewed

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=yd4zSUqGnz

Global warming is nothing more than political B.S.


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358035 - 02/05/10 01:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
My POV is no more biased than yours man.

Extinction is a FACT of life no way around that.

If the Vampire squid survived for over 350 million years .....
and cant adapt to the current changes.....its time to go

If a house/factory/town is build and some rare field mouse becomes extinct

:ohwell:

Life sux then you die.

Do I think we need to take care of our environment ... :yesnod:

Do I think it is our responsibility to prevent the extinction of random rare species ... :noway:




My view is not biased at all. I said we must be open to the possibility that it is in fact us - the video specifically said the species was dying due to pollution and changing ocean temperatures. One of those two is definitely our fault. There is no argument there.

Also, I must say, it seems unusual to me for one to dismiss a possible correlation between our consumption of fossil fuels and temperature changes. Mainly because glaciers across the planet have begun to melt at phenomenal rates in the last 50 years - coincidentally, in the last 50 years we have also seen enormous global industrialization, ever increasing fuel consumption and the introduction of mainstream air travel.

:shrug: Sorry just seems fishy to me.

In addition, like I also said: ecosystems can be extremely delicate, and even miniscule changes can cause butterfly effects throughout an entire ecosystem. These butterfly effects can happen in short term and long term scenarios. We can not let one species die dismissing it as "just one species."

Perhaps its wrong of me to say we have an obligation to prevent extinction, but if anything we should at the very least prolong the death of a species in the name of science. Especially considering the prehistoric qualities of this creature, can give interesting insight for prehistoric marine animal research.

I mean if anything, we should at least preserve a species with the intention of perhaps finding out whether or not it provides some kind of use to humans: for example, the squid may carry an unknown medicine.

Quote:

niteowl said:
All the numbers collected in the past 20 years are skewed

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=yd4zSUqGnz

Global warming is nothing more than political B.S.




Once again, this is an extremely biased opinion.

Do you have anything else perhaps a bit more substantial to support you claim? Old men debating on CNN doesn't really convince me. Especially when one of the men speaking is the co-founder of the weather channel - for all we know, a business man with no actual meteorological background.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Edited by TomCollins (02/05/10 01:11 PM)

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OfflineTHEBats
The Bridge Master
Male


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Inverted]
    #358036 - 02/05/10 01:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

How come mars is seeing similar changes?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece

I'm split on the issue.  It could be solar, idk.  What I do know is that we are not helping the situation.  That said it is only in our interests that we be environmental.  Life will survive and move on, be it in different forms, climate change is merely a threat to human life as we know it.

I also find it strange that the biggest purporter of man-made global warming, Al Gore, has his hands in big business selling carbon offsets.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/05/10 01:08 PM)

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InvisibleFurrowedBrowM
Free yourself from yourself
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,041
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358045 - 02/05/10 01:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:facepalm:  I dont even know where to begin with this thread.  So i will put it shortly.  There can really be no debate about human's contributions to our environment effecting it in a negative way.  Look at the way we completely exploit a resource and then move on to the next one.  That's been going on since well before the industrial revolution.  The scientific community doesn't view this as something that's debatable.  The media outlets love to make it something that can be questioned.  Money will make people say anything.  Yes, extinction is necessary, so long as it's caused naturally.  Now, if the squid existed for 350 million years and now it'd dying (lets say hypothetically from increased water temperature in their habitat) surely we can attribute that rise in temperature to something, and i would suspect it would be from our actions over the last 200 years.  So, when we can partially attribute a life forms extinction to OUR behaviour then extinction is not a good thing as bats said, it'll fuck up our ecosystems and could eventually get back to us.  denying global warming is like being a prohibitionist.  throw out reason and science for political gain.  pffft!


--------------------





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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358050 - 02/05/10 01:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
How come mars is seeing similar changes?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece





Read that article again. They attribute the temperature changes to dust storms (which get pretty big on Mars.) They say the dust storms are caused by variations in both radiation and temperature. Note, that the variations causing the dust storms could be within the natural fluctuations of the planets environment. However, we don't have dust storms here on Earth, so it is very difficult to suggest that this is not merely coincidence.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358052 - 02/05/10 01:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Spency said:
Do you have anything else perhaps a bit more substantial to support you claim?





There are tons of evidence against
human based global warming
all you have to do is look for it
just because the 6 o'clock news said its real

doesn't make it so

Quote:

8 Arguments Against Global Warming
Adapted from The Heartland Institute

Many claim that global warming is obvious and that all arguments against global warming fall.  The problem is that what is "obvious" often isn't true.

Concern over “global warming” is overblown and misdirected. What follows are eight reasons why we should pull the plug on this scam before it destroys billions of dollars of wealth and millions of jobs.

1. Most scientists do not believe human activities threaten to disrupt the Earth’s climate.

More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying, in part, “there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” (Go to www.oism.org for the complete petition and names of signers.) Surveys of climatologists show similar skepticism.

2. Our most reliable sources of temperature data show no global warming trend.

Satellite readings of temperatures in the lower troposphere (an area scientists predict would immediately reflect any global warming) show no warming since readings began 23 years ago. These readings are accurate to within 0.01ºC, and are consistent with data from weather balloons. Only land-based temperature stations show a warming trend, and these stations do not cover the entire globe, are often contaminated by heat generated by nearby urban development, and are subject to human error.

3. Global climate computer models are too crude to predict future climate changes.

All predictions of global warming are based on computer models, not historical data. In order to get their models to produce predictions that are close to their designers’ expectations, modelers resort to “flux adjustments” that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations, the supposed trigger for global warming. Richard A. Kerr, a writer for Science, says “climate modelers have been ‘cheating’ for so long it’s almost become respectable.”

4. The IPCC did not prove that human activities are causing global warming.

Alarmists frequently quote the executive summaries of reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, to support their predictions. But here is what the IPCC’s latest report, Climate Change 2001, actually says about predicting the future climate: “The Earth’s atmosphere-ocean dynamics is chaotic: its evolution is sensitive to small perturbations in initial conditions. This sensitivity limits our ability to predict the detailed evolution of weather; inevitable errors and uncertainties in the starting conditions of a weather forecast amplify through the forecast. As well as uncertainty in initial conditions, such predictions are also degraded by errors and uncertainties in our ability to represent accurately the significant climate processes.”

5. A modest amount of global warming, should it occur, would be beneficial to the natural world and to human civilization.

This is one of the greatest arguments against global warming.  Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 800 to 1200 AD), which allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, were higher than even the worst-case scenario reported by the IPCC. The period from about 5000-3000 BC, known as the “climatic optimum,” was even warmer and marked “a time when mankind began to build its first civilizations,” observe James Plummer and Frances B. Smith in a study for Consumer Alert. “There is good reason to believe that a warmer climate would have a similar effect on the health and welfare of our own far more advanced and adaptable civilization today.”

6. Efforts to quickly reduce human greenhouse gas emissions would be costly and would not stop Earth’s climate from changing.

Reducing U.S. carbon dioxide emissions to 7 percent below 1990’s levels by the year 2012--the target set by the Kyoto Protocol--would require higher energy taxes and regulations causing the nation to lose 2.4 million jobs and $300 billion in annual economic output. Average household income nationwide would fall by $2,700, and state tax revenues would decline by $93.1 billion due to less taxable earned income and sales, and lower property values. Full implementation of the Kyoto Protocol by all participating nations would reduce global temperature in the year 2100 by a mere 0.14 degrees Celsius.

7. Efforts by state governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are even more expensive and threaten to bust state budgets.

After raising their spending with reckless abandon during the 1990s, states now face a cumulative projected deficit of more than $90 billion. Incredibly, most states nevertheless persist in backing unnecessary and expensive greenhouse gas reduction programs. New Jersey, for example, collects $358 million a year in utility taxes to fund greenhouse gas reduction programs. Such programs will have no impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. All they do is destroy jobs and waste money.

8. The best strategy to pursue is “no regrets.”

The alternative to demands for immediate action to “stop global warming” is not to do nothing. The best strategy is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions sometime in the future if the science becomes more compelling. In the meantime, investments should be made to reduce emissions only when such investments make economic sense in their own right.

This strategy is called “no regrets,” and it is roughly what the Bush administration has been doing. The U.S. spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined, and American businesses are leading the way in demonstrating new technologies for reducing and sequestering greenhouse gas emissions.

Even The Washington Post stated in 2006, "Al Gore calls global warming an "inconvenient truth," as if merely recognizing it could put us on a path to a solution. That's an illusion. The real truth is that we don't know enough to relieve global warming."




link

the evidence is everywhere
if you are willing to look

EPA suppressed evidence against global warming

The simple fact that it is being shoved down my throat makes me suspicious if it.....
just like the swine flu that still hasn't turned in to the pandemic it was supposed to

Their is an underlying agenda
in the Global Warming crowd and
is isn't about saving the planet


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358054 - 02/05/10 01:31 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Here is another site you Global Warming Priests should look at


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358056 - 02/05/10 01:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Spency said:
Do you have anything else perhaps a bit more substantial to support you claim?





There are tons of evidence against
human based global warming
all you have to do is look for it
just because the 6 o'clock news said its real

doesn't make it so

Quote:

8 Arguments Against Global Warming
Adapted from The Heartland Institute

Many claim that global warming is obvious and that all arguments against global warming fall.  The problem is that what is "obvious" often isn't true.

Concern over “global warming” is overblown and misdirected. What follows are eight reasons why we should pull the plug on this scam before it destroys billions of dollars of wealth and millions of jobs.

1. Most scientists do not believe human activities threaten to disrupt the Earth’s climate.

More than 17,000 scientists have signed a petition circulated by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine saying, in part, “there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate.” (Go to www.oism.org for the complete petition and names of signers.) Surveys of climatologists show similar skepticism.

2. Our most reliable sources of temperature data show no global warming trend.

Satellite readings of temperatures in the lower troposphere (an area scientists predict would immediately reflect any global warming) show no warming since readings began 23 years ago. These readings are accurate to within 0.01ºC, and are consistent with data from weather balloons. Only land-based temperature stations show a warming trend, and these stations do not cover the entire globe, are often contaminated by heat generated by nearby urban development, and are subject to human error.

3. Global climate computer models are too crude to predict future climate changes.

All predictions of global warming are based on computer models, not historical data. In order to get their models to produce predictions that are close to their designers’ expectations, modelers resort to “flux adjustments” that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations, the supposed trigger for global warming. Richard A. Kerr, a writer for Science, says “climate modelers have been ‘cheating’ for so long it’s almost become respectable.”

4. The IPCC did not prove that human activities are causing global warming.

Alarmists frequently quote the executive summaries of reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a United Nations organization, to support their predictions. But here is what the IPCC’s latest report, Climate Change 2001, actually says about predicting the future climate: “The Earth’s atmosphere-ocean dynamics is chaotic: its evolution is sensitive to small perturbations in initial conditions. This sensitivity limits our ability to predict the detailed evolution of weather; inevitable errors and uncertainties in the starting conditions of a weather forecast amplify through the forecast. As well as uncertainty in initial conditions, such predictions are also degraded by errors and uncertainties in our ability to represent accurately the significant climate processes.”

5. A modest amount of global warming, should it occur, would be beneficial to the natural world and to human civilization.

This is one of the greatest arguments against global warming.  Temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period (roughly 800 to 1200 AD), which allowed the Vikings to settle presently inhospitable Greenland, were higher than even the worst-case scenario reported by the IPCC. The period from about 5000-3000 BC, known as the “climatic optimum,” was even warmer and marked “a time when mankind began to build its first civilizations,” observe James Plummer and Frances B. Smith in a study for Consumer Alert. “There is good reason to believe that a warmer climate would have a similar effect on the health and welfare of our own far more advanced and adaptable civilization today.”

6. Efforts to quickly reduce human greenhouse gas emissions would be costly and would not stop Earth’s climate from changing.

Reducing U.S. carbon dioxide emissions to 7 percent below 1990’s levels by the year 2012--the target set by the Kyoto Protocol--would require higher energy taxes and regulations causing the nation to lose 2.4 million jobs and $300 billion in annual economic output. Average household income nationwide would fall by $2,700, and state tax revenues would decline by $93.1 billion due to less taxable earned income and sales, and lower property values. Full implementation of the Kyoto Protocol by all participating nations would reduce global temperature in the year 2100 by a mere 0.14 degrees Celsius.

7. Efforts by state governments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are even more expensive and threaten to bust state budgets.

After raising their spending with reckless abandon during the 1990s, states now face a cumulative projected deficit of more than $90 billion. Incredibly, most states nevertheless persist in backing unnecessary and expensive greenhouse gas reduction programs. New Jersey, for example, collects $358 million a year in utility taxes to fund greenhouse gas reduction programs. Such programs will have no impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. All they do is destroy jobs and waste money.

8. The best strategy to pursue is “no regrets.”

The alternative to demands for immediate action to “stop global warming” is not to do nothing. The best strategy is to invest in atmospheric research now and in reducing emissions sometime in the future if the science becomes more compelling. In the meantime, investments should be made to reduce emissions only when such investments make economic sense in their own right.

This strategy is called “no regrets,” and it is roughly what the Bush administration has been doing. The U.S. spends more on global warming research each year than the entire rest of the world combined, and American businesses are leading the way in demonstrating new technologies for reducing and sequestering greenhouse gas emissions.

Even The Washington Post stated in 2006, "Al Gore calls global warming an "inconvenient truth," as if merely recognizing it could put us on a path to a solution. That's an illusion. The real truth is that we don't know enough to relieve global warming."




link

the evidence is everywhere
if you are willing to look

EPA suppressed evidence against global warming

The simple fact that it is being shoved down my throat makes me suspicious if it.....
just like the swine flu that still hasn't turned in to the pandemic it was supposed to

Their is an underlying agenda
in the Global Warming crowd and
is isn't about saving the planet




The article you just quoted is from the same institution that spoke on that show. Once again, your evidence is really unsubstantial.

Also, if you read that article, it mentions the EPA has also suppressed pro-global warming reports. So really, I'm far from convinced with the sources your providing. Though I am very open to the idea that it is just politically driven madness.

Also, please do not merely address my points - you should really respond to the others that are making stronger assertions than I am.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358057 - 02/05/10 01:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Spency said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
How come mars is seeing similar changes?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece





Read that article again. They attribute the temperature changes to dust storms (which get pretty big on Mars.) They say the dust storms are caused by variations in both radiation and temperature. Note, that the variations causing the dust storms could be within the natural fluctuations of the planets environment. However, we don't have dust storms here on Earth, so it is very difficult to suggest that this is not merely coincidence.




That's their theory, they need more data to support it. And yes we do have dust storms on earth, just not on the scale in which they occur on mars.  It just seems strange that it's at nearly the same rate.


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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InvisibleFurrowedBrowM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358059 - 02/05/10 01:38 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't trust anything from the Heartland institute. 

That's for sure.  The Heartland Institute's Environmental "expert," James Taylor, is a lawyer based in Florida. Despite presenting a veneer of scientific expertise in their Environmental advocacy, the Heartland lacks any scientists trained to understand climate issues.

Never trust a political think tank (and a conservative one at that!) to provide or fund your science.


--------------------





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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358060 - 02/05/10 01:43 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Here's another article.

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/japan-warming-UN/2009/02/25/id/328463

Found these hypothesis's interesting.

# CO2 emissions began to increase significantly after 1946 and are still rising. Therefore, according to the IPCC, global atmospheric temperatures should continue to increase. However, temperatures stopped increasing in 2001.

# The global temperature increase up to today is primarily a recovery from the “Little Ice Age” that earth experienced from 1400 to 1800. This rise peaked in 2000.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/05/10 01:45 PM)

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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358061 - 02/05/10 01:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
the evidence is everywhere
if you are willing to look

EPA suppressed evidence against global warming

The simple fact that it is being shoved down my throat makes me suspicious if it.....
just like the swine flu that still hasn't turned in to the pandemic it was supposed to




Oh by the way, I did a little more research into the EPA thing. Turns out the report was submitted by a think tank called CEI. I looked up the org, and found out some interesting things about its funding.

Turns out it receives funding from:
- Ford Motor Company
- Exxon Mobil
- Pfizer - "Pfizer pleaded guilty in 2009 to the largest health care fraud in U.S. history and received the largest criminal penalty ever levied for illegal marketing of four of its drugs. Called a repeat offender, this was Pfizer's fourth such settlement with the U.S. Department of Justice in the previous ten years." (Quoted from Wikipedia)
-Earhart Foundation - "Harry B. Earhart started the foundation in 1929 with the fortune he made with White Star Oil Company." (Quoted from Wikipedia) The Earhart Foundation also funds the George C. Marshall institute, another think tank that apposes global warming.


So 3 connections to the oil industry and a fraudulent pharmaceutical company. Sorry seems fishy to me. :shrug: I can understand why the EPA suppressed such a document.

Anything else you can show me?


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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Edited by TomCollins (02/05/10 01:56 PM)

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InvisibleInverted
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358073 - 02/05/10 02:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FurrowedBrow said:
:facepalm:  I dont even know where to begin with this thread.  So i will put it shortly.  There can really be no debate about human's contributions to our environment effecting it in a negative way.  Look at the way we completely exploit a resource and then move on to the next one.  That's been going on since well before the industrial revolution.  The scientific community doesn't view this as something that's debatable.  The media outlets love to make it something that can be questioned.  Money will make people say anything.  Yes, extinction is necessary, so long as it's caused naturally.  Now, if the squid existed for 350 million years and now it'd dying (lets say hypothetically from increased water temperature in their habitat) surely we can attribute that rise in temperature to something, and i would suspect it would be from our actions over the last 200 years.  So, when we can partially attribute a life forms extinction to OUR behaviour then extinction is not a good thing as bats said, it'll fuck up our ecosystems and could eventually get back to us.  denying global warming is like being a prohibitionist.  throw out reason and science for political gain.  pffft!




Yes


--------------------
Don't criticize what you can't understand

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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358075 - 02/05/10 02:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Here is another site you Global Warming Priests should look at




I just read it. That looks like more of some ones opinion than anything based on actual fact.

Here's what the author had to say about glaciers and the ice caps.

Quote:

Most Global Warming reports claim that the worlds glaciers are shrinking - but 90% of the total ice mass actually growing.

...over 90% of the Earth's ice is located in non-moving ice caps - and these are increasing mass.




I don't think this is correct.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358076 - 02/05/10 02:03 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So rather than debate the science you attack the messenger :super:

there is no real solid evidence either way TBH
this issue kinda like God you can't prove nor disprove either theory.

In my eyes if there is no concrete proof of something
only speculation and assumptions based on skewed numbers

then I tend to not believe the theory :sorry:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358083 - 02/05/10 02:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
So rather than debate the science you attack the messenger :super:




I don't understand? The evidence your using to support your assertions is flawed. I'm simply pointing this out. I'm not attacking anyone, your posting information that is itself very flawed and twisted.

Accusing me of attacking you, when merely all I've done is just read what you posted seems to be a little over the top to be quite honest.

Quote:

niteowl said:there is no real solid evidence either way TBH




This is not what you said earlier.

Quote:

niteowl said:this issue kinda like God you can't prove nor disprove either theory.




However, in my opinion, there is more scientific evidence to suggest he does not exist than there is to support that he does. I'm sure you disagree. :rolleyes:

If someone showed me evidence of gods existence, my opinion would be different.

Quote:

niteowl said:In my eyes if there is no concrete proof of something
only speculation and assumptions based on skewed numbers

then I tend to not believe the theory :sorry:




I have yet to see evidence for your belief. :shrug:

Still very open to the idea though. I'm not difficult to convince.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358101 - 02/05/10 02:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
Here's another article.

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/japan-warming-UN/2009/02/25/id/328463

Found these hypothesis's interesting.

# CO2 emissions began to increase significantly after 1946 and are still rising. Therefore, according to the IPCC, global atmospheric temperatures should continue to increase. However, temperatures stopped increasing in 2001.

# The global temperature increase up to today is primarily a recovery from the “Little Ice Age” that earth experienced from 1400 to 1800. This rise peaked in 2000.




--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #358105 - 02/05/10 02:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

do you have THEbats on ignore or something :confused:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358106 - 02/05/10 02:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

#1) wrong. 2001 was not the stop of the warming. wtf is that even supposed to mean? 6 out of the 10 warmest years EVER RECORDED have been since 2001. I don't have any idea where you're getting that stat from, you could not be further from the truth

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20100121/
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

#2) Look at this graph. a recovery from the "little ice age" (known by smart people as the maunder minimum, a 75 year period in the late 1600s which attributes its low temperatures to a lack of sunspots) was temporary and completely unrelated to current warming. the graphs relevant to this discussion display the hockey stick shape, you'll see right around the turn of the century global mean temperatures take a dramatic turn upwards. coincidentally this perfectly coincides with the Industrial Revolution, which is when anthropogenic CO2 emissions really began


And niteowl- there aren't enough days in a year to address all the erroneous and illiterate science you're attempting to spew at us


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #358128 - 02/05/10 03:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I question all of the data proposed by Global Warming nuts.

Since they all have a reputation of bending data to their favor

Quote:

Over the past two decades, they say, "the percentage of [Canadian] stations in the lower elevations tripled and those at higher elevations, above 300 feet, were reduced in half."

The result, they say, is a warmer-than-truthful global temperature record.

"NOAA... systematically eliminated 75% of the world's stations with a clear bias towards removing higher latitude, high altitude and rural locations, all of which had a tendency to be cooler," the authors say. "The thermometers in a sense, marched towards the tropics, the sea, and to airport tarmacs."




http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=2465893

Quote:

It has been claimed that the emails show that scientists manipulated data to bolster their argument that global warming is genuine and is being caused by human actions.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/6619796/Climate-scientists-accused-of-manipulating-global-warming-data.html


Anytime the government is hardcore FOR something I question it....

Did you believe the swine flu hype too ?


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358248 - 02/05/10 10:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If we destroy some part of the food chain or ecosystem, it WILL recover and correct itself... When a species becomes over or underpopulated, the rest of the web reacts quickly, causing growth in other areas of life. 

The truly arrogant thing is that we consider events which impact humans negatively as bad for the entire planet.  The population of all living things on Earth is known to have been practically 0 at multiple times in history, and it still recovers.  This place is perfect for life.
  Humans are even fragile and at danger, maybe not of extinction, but of again becoming much more marginalized in the global scheme.  We're one high energy gamma burst, celestial impact or other major global event from rubbing sticks together again.

And even if the entire solar system crashes into some other heavenly body in a flurry of molten energy, is the universe upset about it?

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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DudeTron]
    #358249 - 02/05/10 10:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Hence why I stated such.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358255 - 02/05/10 11:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure what you stated was wrong


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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #358260 - 02/05/10 11:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
Extinction can be a good thing in the long term, but in the short term an extinction, at least in the manner we are accelerating it, can cause the collapse of an ecosystem and cause not just one species to become extinct but many.

Life will continue though so really are only concern for extinction lies in our own selfish needs and desires.  People are constantly concerned for polar bears but they serve but one small part in the big picture.




What did I state wrong?


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/05/10 11:43 PM)

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InvisibleFurrowedBrowM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358269 - 02/05/10 11:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

are vs. our.


--------------------





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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358294 - 02/06/10 12:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
Extinction can be a good thing in the long term, but in the short term an extinction, at least in the manner we are accelerating it, can cause the collapse of an ecosystem and cause not just one species to become extinct but many.

Life will continue though so really are only concern for extinction lies in our own selfish needs and desires.  People are constantly concerned for polar bears but they serve but one small part in the big picture.




What did I state wrong?




well I clearly wasn't responding to that post now was I?


--------------------

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OfflineTomCollins


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358300 - 02/06/10 01:27 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I question all of the data proposed by Global Warming nuts.

Since they all have a reputation of bending data to their favor





You consider NASA scientists to be "global warming nuts?" They "ALL" have a reputation of bending data?

How far do you have to reach into your asshole to get this information? (No offense)

Here's another quote from your article that you posted:
Quote:

"NASA has not been involved in any manipulation of climate data used in the annual GISS global temperature analysis," he said. "The agency is confident of the quality of this data and stands by previous scientifically-based conclusions regarding global temperatures."





Niteowl, you bewilder me! You say this is some government conspiracy, yet all the information you've posted that apposes global warming is some how directly related either to the oil industry or political organizations. Then when I point it out, you sort of pretend I didn't say anything, and make the same assertions.

Also, seriously, I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I just read what you post!

Quote:

THEBats said:
Here's another article.

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/japan-warming-UN/2009/02/25/id/328463

Found these hypothesis's interesting.

# CO2 emissions began to increase significantly after 1946 and are still rising. Therefore, according to the IPCC, global atmospheric temperatures should continue to increase. However, temperatures stopped increasing in 2001.

# The global temperature increase up to today is primarily a recovery from the “Little Ice Age” that earth experienced from 1400 to 1800. This rise peaked in 2000.




This is a pretty valid point, however Harry posted data that contradicts this and it also comes from a reliable source. Regardless, it does show that there are legitimate reasons for doubt.

Edited by TomCollins (02/06/10 01:53 AM)

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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358354 - 02/06/10 07:32 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
Extinction can be a good thing in the long term, but in the short term an extinction, at least in the manner we are accelerating it, can cause the collapse of an ecosystem and cause not just one species to become extinct but many.

Life will continue though so really are only concern for extinction lies in our own selfish needs and desires.  People are constantly concerned for polar bears but they serve but one small part in the big picture.




What did I state wrong?




well I clearly wasn't responding to that post now was I?




Perhaps you should learn to use the reply function and there wouldn't be this confusion.  I was responding to DudeTron who was responding to that particular post.  You then responded to my post.  In the context of the conversation, yes that's the post you were responding to.  Also I didn't state anything I merely posted information from an article. Never stated that I believe the information.  In fact I said in my others posts we are not helping and accelerating the process. 
Quote:

FurrowedBrow said:
are vs. our.




:shakefist:


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/06/10 07:57 AM)

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OfflineTHEBats
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #358381 - 02/06/10 10:40 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
#1) wrong. 2001 was not the stop of the warming. wtf is that even supposed to mean? 6 out of the 10 warmest years EVER RECORDED have been since 2001. I don't have any idea where you're getting that stat from, you could not be further from the truth

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20100121/
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

#2) Look at this graph. a recovery from the "little ice age" (known by smart people as the maunder minimum, a 75 year period in the late 1600s which attributes its low temperatures to a lack of sunspots) was temporary and completely unrelated to current warming. the graphs relevant to this discussion display the hockey stick shape, you'll see right around the turn of the century global mean temperatures take a dramatic turn upwards. coincidentally this perfectly coincides with the Industrial Revolution, which is when anthropogenic CO2 emissions really began


And niteowl- there aren't enough days in a year to address all the erroneous and illiterate science you're attempting to spew at us




I'd also like to pose the question on how we are getting reliable global temperature data as far back as 1700.  If we're just using atmospheric composition tests through drilling ice cores then are we simply concluding that atmospheric composition has a direct correlation with global mean temperature?

Also last year also broke records as far as low temperatures go.

Seem to have found a graph that represents what they were talking about perhaps.



Here's the article it came from.

http://www.populartechnology.net/2010/01/global-cooling-in-2009.html


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/06/10 11:02 AM)

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Posts: 11,753
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358420 - 02/06/10 12:15 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Of course, by the very nature of global climate change then the extremes on both ends of the spectrum will increase. the warm will be warmer and the cold will be colder. :shrug:


It's actually extremely accurate to extrapolate past temperature patterns through ice cores because the heavier molecular weight of water composed with delta18-O oxygen affects the rate of evaporation. by measuring the concentration of water made with d18-O atoms versus standard atomic oxygen we can very accurately calculate what the temperature was at that point. further, when the majority of the 16-O has been evaporated and stored on land in snow pack then the concentration of d18-O in the ocean is significantly higher. Foraminifera and diatoms within the ocean use oxygen, silicon and carbon (all three of which have temperature sensitive isotopes) to form their shells, so combining the ratios of isotopic oxygen within their shells on the ocean floor combined with isotopic concentration in ice cores is an extremely accurate and entirely errorless way of calculating past temperatures. the 1700's is just the start of it, we've accurately mapped temperatures for the last couple hundred thousand years, and at this point we're only limited by our extraction technology. the only reason we haven't mapped farther is because we haven't drilled deep enough.


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OfflineTHEBats
The Bridge Master
Male


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #358454 - 02/06/10 12:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
Of course, by the very nature of global climate change then the extremes on both ends of the spectrum will increase. the warm will be warmer and the cold will be colder. :shrug:





I'm not sure if I really understand this.  If we are exponentially increasing the amount of co2 in the atmosphere shouldn't the temperature follow the trend if it's the cause?


Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:

It's actually extremely accurate to extrapolate past temperature patterns through ice cores because the heavier molecular weight of water composed with delta18-O oxygen affects the rate of evaporation. by measuring the concentration of water made with d18-O atoms versus standard atomic oxygen we can very accurately calculate what the temperature was at that point. further, when the majority of the 16-O has been evaporated and stored on land in snow pack then the concentration of d18-O in the ocean is significantly higher. Foraminifera and diatoms within the ocean use oxygen, silicon and carbon (all three of which have temperature sensitive isotopes) to form their shells, so combining the ratios of isotopic oxygen within their shells on the ocean floor combined with isotopic concentration in ice cores is an extremely accurate and entirely errorless way of calculating past temperatures. the 1700's is just the start of it, we've accurately mapped temperatures for the last couple hundred thousand years, and at this point we're only limited by our extraction technology. the only reason we haven't mapped farther is because we haven't drilled deep enough.




As far as this I would need to read into it more.  I'm still not quite understanding how that could translate into a mean global temperature.  Aren't most ice core samples taken from the poles?  I would also need to see examples of present day temperature being successfully predicted using this method; ie taking samples over a period of time and those predictions matching actual recorded data.


--------------------
kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358461 - 02/06/10 12:52 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Ice from the poles comes from water evaporated from every ocean on the globe. by using ice in greenland, nova scotia and Antarctica as well as chile, tibet etc... we can get some pretty accurate numbers. plus like I said, the shells of foraminifera are all over the planet on the sea floor so that can give us a spot-location reading as well.

if you do some searching you can find MILLIONS of examples of this being used to extrapolate data. it's hardly breaking technology, they've been doing it for years and the math is very sound and accurate. google it out if you're curious :shrug:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #358464 - 02/06/10 12:58 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
I'd also like to pose the question on how we are getting reliable global temperature data as far back as 1700.




Cause they make up numbers
to fit their theories ...
not the other way around

Here is a list from NASA on yearly temps

year    Annual_Mean  5-year_Mean
---------------------------------
1880      -.36        *
1881      .18        *
1882      .10      -.27
1883      -.75      -.32
1884      -.50      -.45
1885      -.60      -.52
1886      -.50      -.48
1887      -.27      -.35
1888      -.54      -.22
1889      .16      -.19
1890      .05      -.25
1891      -.33      -.27
1892      -.59      -.27
1893      -.64      -.41
1894      .18      -.30
1895      -.66      -.19
1896      .22      -.09
1897      -.06      -.20
1898      -.12      .06
1899      -.36      .04
1900      .61      .05
1901      .12      -.04
1902      -.01      -.04
1903      -.55      -.24
1904      -.34      -.26
1905      -.40      -.28
1906      .02      -.14
1907      -.14      -.11
1908      .17      .05
1909      -.19      .08
1910      .37      -.06
1911      .16      -.12
1912      -.84      -.07
1913      -.10      -.18
1914      .05      -.31
1915      -.15      -.33
1916      -.50      -.31
1917      -.97      -.34
1918      .05      -.39
1919      -.12      -.07
1920      -.41      .16
1921      1.12      .13
1922      .15      .02
1923      -.08      .18
1924      -.68      -.04
1925      .38      -.03
1926      .05      .00
1927      .18      .03
1928      .06      -.03
1929      -.54      .16
1930      .11      .12
1931      1.00      .24
1932      -.03      .59
1933      .65      .58
1934      1.22      .41
1935      .03      .39
1936      .16      .41
1937      -.14      .32
1938      .77      .32
1939      .80      .39
1940      .02      .43
1941      .51      .30
1942      .03      .15
1943      .13      .13
1944      .04      .16
1945      -.05      .16
1946      .64      .12
1947      .06      .15
1948      -.09      .11
1949      .17      -.10
1950      -.23      -.05
1951      -.39      .14
1952      .28      .27
1953      .87      .30
1954      .82      .43
1955      -.06      .40
1956      .26      .24
1957      .13      .11
1958      .05      .07
1959      .15      .02
1960      -.23      -.01
1961      -.01      .02
1962      -.01      -.03
1963      .18      -.01
1964      -.11      -.06
1965      -.13      -.07
1966      -.23      -.17
1967      -.09      -.19
1968      -.30      -.19
1969      -.20      -.17
1970      -.14      -.21
1971      -.11      -.10
1972      -.31      -.03
1973      .24      -.04
1974      .19      -.07
1975      -.20      .07
1976      -.25      -.07
1977      .37      -.22
1978      -.48      -.13
1979      -.56      .05
1980      .25      -.09
1981      .67      .01
1982      -.32      .13
1983      .00      .00
1984      .04      .02
1985      -.37      .24
1986      .75      .32
1987      .80      .29
1988      .38      .55
1989      -.09      .54
1990      .91      .45
1991      .70      .30
1992      .36      .43
1993      -.36      .33
1994      .55      .18
1995      .43      .14
1996      -.06      .47
1997      .14      .58
1998      1.31      .63
1999      1.07      .83
2000      .69      .93
2001      .92      .81
2002      .68      .72
2003      .69      .76
2004      .61      .84
2005      .92      .88
2006      1.31      .77
2007      .88      .70
2008      .12        *
2009      .25        *

link

Looks like things are cooling off to me :shrug:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358469 - 02/06/10 01:24 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
I'd also like to pose the question on how we are getting reliable global temperature data as far back as 1700.




Cause they make up numbers
to fit their theories ...
not the other way around

Here is a list from NASA on yearly temps

year    Annual_Mean  5-year_Mean
---------------------------------
1880      -.36        *
1881      .18        *
1882      .10      -.27
1883      -.75      -.32
1884      -.50      -.45
1885      -.60      -.52
1886      -.50      -.48
1887      -.27      -.35
1888      -.54      -.22
1889      .16      -.19
1890      .05      -.25
1891      -.33      -.27
1892      -.59      -.27
1893      -.64      -.41
1894      .18      -.30
1895      -.66      -.19
1896      .22      -.09
1897      -.06      -.20
1898      -.12      .06
1899      -.36      .04
1900      .61      .05
1901      .12      -.04
1902      -.01      -.04
1903      -.55      -.24
1904      -.34      -.26
1905      -.40      -.28
1906      .02      -.14
1907      -.14      -.11
1908      .17      .05
1909      -.19      .08
1910      .37      -.06
1911      .16      -.12
1912      -.84      -.07
1913      -.10      -.18
1914      .05      -.31
1915      -.15      -.33
1916      -.50      -.31
1917      -.97      -.34
1918      .05      -.39
1919      -.12      -.07
1920      -.41      .16
1921      1.12      .13
1922      .15      .02
1923      -.08      .18
1924      -.68      -.04
1925      .38      -.03
1926      .05      .00
1927      .18      .03
1928      .06      -.03
1929      -.54      .16
1930      .11      .12
1931      1.00      .24
1932      -.03      .59
1933      .65      .58
1934      1.22      .41
1935      .03      .39
1936      .16      .41
1937      -.14      .32
1938      .77      .32
1939      .80      .39
1940      .02      .43
1941      .51      .30
1942      .03      .15
1943      .13      .13
1944      .04      .16
1945      -.05      .16
1946      .64      .12
1947      .06      .15
1948      -.09      .11
1949      .17      -.10
1950      -.23      -.05
1951      -.39      .14
1952      .28      .27
1953      .87      .30
1954      .82      .43
1955      -.06      .40
1956      .26      .24
1957      .13      .11
1958      .05      .07
1959      .15      .02
1960      -.23      -.01
1961      -.01      .02
1962      -.01      -.03
1963      .18      -.01
1964      -.11      -.06
1965      -.13      -.07
1966      -.23      -.17
1967      -.09      -.19
1968      -.30      -.19
1969      -.20      -.17
1970      -.14      -.21
1971      -.11      -.10
1972      -.31      -.03
1973      .24      -.04
1974      .19      -.07
1975      -.20      .07
1976      -.25      -.07
1977      .37      -.22
1978      -.48      -.13
1979      -.56      .05
1980      .25      -.09
1981      .67      .01
1982      -.32      .13
1983      .00      .00
1984      .04      .02
1985      -.37      .24
1986      .75      .32
1987      .80      .29
1988      .38      .55
1989      -.09      .54
1990      .91      .45
1991      .70      .30
1992      .36      .43
1993      -.36      .33
1994      .55      .18
1995      .43      .14
1996      -.06      .47
1997      .14      .58
1998      1.31      .63
1999      1.07      .83
2000      .69      .93
2001      .92      .81
2002      .68      .72
2003      .69      .76
2004      .61      .84
2005      .92      .88
2006      1.31      .77
2007      .88      .70
2008      .12        *
2009      .25        *

link

Looks like things are cooling off to me :shrug:




It looks like an up and down pattern to me. Steadily increasing.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358473 - 02/06/10 01:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
I'd also like to pose the question on how we are getting reliable global temperature data as far back as 1700.




Cause they make up numbers
to fit their theories ...
not the other way around

Here is a list from NASA on yearly temps

year    Annual_Mean  5-year_Mean
---------------------------------
1880      -.36        *
1881      .18        *
1882      .10      -.27
1883      -.75      -.32
1884      -.50      -.45
1885      -.60      -.52
1886      -.50      -.48
1887      -.27      -.35
1888      -.54      -.22
1889      .16      -.19
1890      .05      -.25
1891      -.33      -.27
1892      -.59      -.27
1893      -.64      -.41
1894      .18      -.30
1895      -.66      -.19
1896      .22      -.09
1897      -.06      -.20
1898      -.12      .06
1899      -.36      .04
1900      .61      .05
1901      .12      -.04
1902      -.01      -.04
1903      -.55      -.24
1904      -.34      -.26
1905      -.40      -.28
1906      .02      -.14
1907      -.14      -.11
1908      .17      .05
1909      -.19      .08
1910      .37      -.06
1911      .16      -.12
1912      -.84      -.07
1913      -.10      -.18
1914      .05      -.31
1915      -.15      -.33
1916      -.50      -.31
1917      -.97      -.34
1918      .05      -.39
1919      -.12      -.07
1920      -.41      .16
1921      1.12      .13
1922      .15      .02
1923      -.08      .18
1924      -.68      -.04
1925      .38      -.03
1926      .05      .00
1927      .18      .03
1928      .06      -.03
1929      -.54      .16
1930      .11      .12
1931      1.00      .24
1932      -.03      .59
1933      .65      .58
1934      1.22      .41
1935      .03      .39
1936      .16      .41
1937      -.14      .32
1938      .77      .32
1939      .80      .39
1940      .02      .43
1941      .51      .30
1942      .03      .15
1943      .13      .13
1944      .04      .16
1945      -.05      .16
1946      .64      .12
1947      .06      .15
1948      -.09      .11
1949      .17      -.10
1950      -.23      -.05
1951      -.39      .14
1952      .28      .27
1953      .87      .30
1954      .82      .43
1955      -.06      .40
1956      .26      .24
1957      .13      .11
1958      .05      .07
1959      .15      .02
1960      -.23      -.01
1961      -.01      .02
1962      -.01      -.03
1963      .18      -.01
1964      -.11      -.06
1965      -.13      -.07
1966      -.23      -.17
1967      -.09      -.19
1968      -.30      -.19
1969      -.20      -.17
1970      -.14      -.21
1971      -.11      -.10
1972      -.31      -.03
1973      .24      -.04
1974      .19      -.07
1975      -.20      .07
1976      -.25      -.07
1977      .37      -.22
1978      -.48      -.13
1979      -.56      .05
1980      .25      -.09
1981      .67      .01
1982      -.32      .13
1983      .00      .00
1984      .04      .02
1985      -.37      .24
1986      .75      .32
1987      .80      .29
1988      .38      .55
1989      -.09      .54
1990      .91      .45
1991      .70      .30
1992      .36      .43
1993      -.36      .33
1994      .55      .18
1995      .43      .14
1996      -.06      .47
1997      .14      .58
1998      1.31      .63
1999      1.07      .83
2000      .69      .93
2001      .92      .81
2002      .68      .72
2003      .69      .76
2004      .61      .84
2005      .92      .88
2006      1.31      .77
2007      .88      .70
2008      .12        *
2009      .25        *

link

Looks like things are cooling off to me :shrug:





First off read my posts to see how the numbers are NOT made up.

secondly, if you had actually looked at the numbers you posted you would see that it actually displays an increase as well. import those numbers into excel and graph it and tell me what you find


--------------------

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OfflineDudeTron
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #358489 - 02/06/10 02:24 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's a waste of time to address this issue from a standpoint of 'fact-checking' and name dropping and 'credibility' of sources etc. 
There's too much money involved in being he who decides the current paradigm.  If your science beats his science then you get the grants, and your science becomes even more concrete.  The way that we operate our intense scientific endeavors has become extremely politicized, monetary, and cultural... Science is our latest religion, and don't forget that some people know and exploit that.

As far as global warming/climate change I think it's wrong to assume we know what's going on.  More so when we really on figures and organizations whose drive to discover and enlighten is outweighed by their need to promote agendas and make money.
It's silly to assume we don't affect the Earth, though to what degree is debatable.  We're trying to predict the future, and we've never been very good at that... It's still a matter of opinion and faith when we try to state what's going to happen to Earth because of us.  My personal opinion is that our system is just not that fragile.. Life is robust and extremely persistent.

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Offlineb0b gnarley
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #358501 - 02/06/10 02:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Gaia hypothesis, motherfucker, learn it.

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OfflineDudeTron
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: b0b gnarley]
    #358511 - 02/06/10 03:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

He [James Lovelock] claims that Gaia's self-regulation will likely prevent any extraordinary runaway effects that wipe out life itself, but that humans will survive and be "culled and, I hope, refined."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis#The_Revenge_of_Gaia

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DudeTron]
    #358527 - 02/06/10 03:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Lovelock is a faggot

earth as an organism FTW

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DudeTron]
    #358535 - 02/06/10 03:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Do we really need to use global warming to catalyze moral behavior?  Isn't it obvious that spewing all sorts of chemicals into a formerly pristine atmosphere will cause damage to some degree?  Are we going to debate to what degree of damage is necessary before we change things? 

Niteowl, should we change our current coal burning ways in favor of a more sustainable alternative? 


:facepalm:


If you say yes to that question, does the global warming debate become irrelevant?  This isn't the fucking debate that should be going on.  We should be debating the economics and feasibility of alternative methods of energy production and reduction.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358539 - 02/06/10 03:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

WE WIL;L BECOME BELL CURVE

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358581 - 02/06/10 04:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not going to miss polar bears or vampire squid.  I'm not FOR their extiction either.  The variety of life on earth is SO vast, it seems almost natural for one species to dominate all of life on earth.  It is still sad...but I believe it is natural.  Especially (and unfortunately) when human nature is taken into account.

Quote:

FurrowedBrow said:
:facepalm:  I dont even know where to begin with this thread.  So i will put it shortly.  There can really be no debate about human's contributions to our environment effecting it in a negative way.  Look at the way we completely exploit a resource and then move on to the next one.  That's been going on since well before the industrial revolution.  The scientific community doesn't view this as something that's debatable.  The media outlets love to make it something that can be questioned.  Money will make people say anything.  Yes, extinction is necessary, so long as it's caused naturally.  Now, if the squid existed for 350 million years and now it'd dying (lets say hypothetically from increased water temperature in their habitat) surely we can attribute that rise in temperature to something, and i would suspect it would be from our actions over the last 200 years.  So, when we can partially attribute a life forms extinction to OUR behaviour then extinction is not a good thing as bats said, it'll fuck up our ecosystems and could eventually get back to us.  denying global warming is like being a prohibitionist.  throw out reason and science for political gain.  pffft!




ABSOLUTELY. It will definitely bite us in the ass.  But I have faith in nature to adapt beyond our destructive nature.  What did vampire squid do for me?  What did polar bears do for me?  Nothing, that's what.  Selfish Mo'fuckin bears.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DJ_avocado]
    #358595 - 02/06/10 06:17 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

the food chain is very complex.  You may benefit in many many ways, indirectly and covertly from their current and continued existence.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358647 - 02/06/10 09:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have a knife to a polar bears throat man! I'm just saying what ever happens happens. :shrug: I'm just trying to jokingly imitate someone "oblivious to wildlife".  I was watching Dave Attenborough in "The Private Life of Plants", "Branching Out", and the relationships that some plant species have with their enviroment is insanely fragile. Check'em out.



I find this shit AMAZING.  :whoa: Sooo stoned right na.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DJ_avocado]
    #358652 - 02/06/10 09:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

check out life in the undergrowth

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #358677 - 02/06/10 10:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DudeTron said:
As far as global warming/climate change I think it's wrong to assume we know what's going on.  More so when we really on figures and organizations whose drive to discover and enlighten is outweighed by their need to promote agendas and make money.
It's silly to assume we don't affect the Earth, though to what degree is debatable.  We're trying to predict the future, and we've never been very good at that... It's still a matter of opinion and faith when we try to state what's going to happen to Earth because of us.  My personal opinion is that our system is just not that fragile.. Life is robust and extremely persistent.




That's pretty much how I feel about the issue.
There isn't enough evidence to say how the climate works

Assuming that humans are drastically affecting global climates
in my opinion is an overly arrogant stance to take

we simply do not have enough data to say one way or another
how the planets weather is supposed to play out

Quote:

FurrowedBrow said:
Do we really need to use global warming to catalyze moral behavior?  Isn't it obvious that spewing all sorts of chemicals into a formerly pristine atmosphere will cause damage to some degree?  Are we going to debate to what degree of damage is necessary before we change things? 

Niteowl, should we change our current coal burning ways in favor of a more sustainable alternative?




Of course, when have I said otherwise?

Why is it when I disagree with the human based global warming theory
that people instantly believe that I am some how pro oil

:facepalm: x10

Fossil fuels are a finite source of energy, they will run out one day
and we need to find a cleaner better source of energy that is abundant
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that simple fact

Quote:

If you say yes to that question, does the global warming debate become irrelevant?  This isn't the fucking debate that should be going on.  We should be debating the economics and feasibility of alternative methods of energy production and reduction.




Actually this debate was about animals going extinct

Some people got their panties all wadded up
when I said it was a good thing and
spun off on a rant about human based global warming
being the reason for these recent extinctions

:shrug:

I have never supported the theory of human based global warming
I do believe that the planet has been moving out of an ice age, so a warming is expected
I have simply not seen any real evidence of humans having a dramatic affect on this system

the only people pushing this issue are ones with an underlying agenda of getting reelected

hence my suspicions


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #359808 - 02/08/10 02:42 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Actually this debate was about animals going extinct

Some people got their panties all wadded up
when I said it was a good thing and
spun off on a rant about human based global warming
being the reason for these recent extinctions

:shrug:





Lol but you posted a vid of an animal, who's existence was threatened by pollution and asked isn't extinction a good thing. :facepalm:

No one got their panties wadded up and the conversation did not spin off. You evidently started it poorly. All I did was give an example of an animal that is threatened due to "possible" global warming, and you said global warming is a government conspiracy. :rofl2:


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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #359829 - 02/08/10 06:02 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:


If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural. sure in the past there have been wide range temperature fluctuations, but the speed of the current trend is thousands of times faster than anything experienced in the past. additionally, we can say with 100% certainty that CO2, methane and water vapor are extremely potent greenhouse gases so it's a rather logical conclusion that dumping thousands of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is going to have a discernible impact.





actually...









--------------------
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Yrat]
    #359928 - 02/08/10 11:47 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:handth:

great vid Yrat

Proved most of my points

:cheers:

The only people pushing for the human based global warming theory are
politicians who think they can cash in on the fear created by the theory


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Yrat]
    #359929 - 02/08/10 11:54 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sorry I don't have time to watch those videos right now but I promise I will later. I saw the first 3 minutes and it looked promising at least.

I do however want to present a couple quick facts for you to ponder.

- CO2 absolutely does reflect and re-radiate infrared heat. This is a function of Rayleigh and Mie scattering of different electromagnetic wavelengths based on the size of the molecule they're impacting. it's not a debate, it's been proven over and over again in laboratory tests.
- We are dumping thousands of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.

What's the logical conclusion here? it's not that the current warming trend is 100% caused by humans, but it is an absolute fact that we are affecting it. the only debate is how much


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #359994 - 02/08/10 01:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:

If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.




It seems that was the argument you were presenting though. 


- CO2 absolutely does reflect and re-radiate infrared heat. This is a function of Rayleigh and Mie scattering of different electromagnetic wavelengths based on the size of the molecule they're impacting. it's not a debate, it's been proven over and over again in laboratory tests.
- We are dumping thousands of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.

These are undeniable however they're merely one single factor in which affects climate change.  The whole argument I was making is not whether or not we are making an impact, because we are, but rather if the current media hypothesis of uncontrollable warming is congruent with the evidence presented.  Also you would think Al Gore, if he was really concerned with global warming, would invest his money into something other than selling carbon offsets...

That said the argument is really pointless because either way it serves our best interests to look for and invest in renewable resources as well as minimize and repair our impact on the planet.


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #359997 - 02/08/10 02:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

oh you were talking about the media? well yeah, fuck them :lol: The media is almost never correct on anything in my experience.

however, the science is always sound. sure, those two guys got caught falsifying data, but those were two dudes out of the hundreds of thousands of respectable and honorable scientists in the field. there are bad apples in every bunch but that doesn't mean the entire demographic is untrustworthy


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #360000 - 02/08/10 02:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah well my argument was more focused on the media hypothesis of humans to be the sole cause of this warming trend and also using scare tactics.  It just always discerns me when hidden agendas are present and people are profiting off of these methods.  Especially in the manner of selling carbon credits, or energy saver cfls, which although they do in fact save energy they're quite harmful when gotten rid of in landfills.


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #360003 - 02/08/10 02:19 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

yep. and carbon credits are retarded. How does purchasing the right to pollute extra actually accomplish anything "green"?

I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.


Example; July 2008 was the first month in around 74 years (I think, I'm going from memory here) to be completely devoid of a single sunspot. Sunspots increase the total energy coming towards our planet so this could account for 2008 being an uncharacteristically cold year. However, it was also the start of the El Nino Southern Oscillation where the pacific thermocline alters angle of inclination (and thus energy transfer from the equator poleward). Who's to say which one is more to blame for the lowest temperatures of the decade that year?


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360009 - 02/08/10 02:30 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.






Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.






I guess that's where the confusion came from.  :shrug:


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #360010 - 02/08/10 02:31 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I should have reorganized that first statement to read "not 100% natural" to clarify. my bad


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
    #360216 - 02/08/10 07:06 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEBats said:
Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.






Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.






I guess that's where the confusion came from.  :shrug:




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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #360238 - 02/08/10 07:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Spency, Harry I saw this and thought of y'all



:ilold:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #360249 - 02/08/10 07:31 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Spency, Harry I saw this and thought of y'all



:ilold:




:ilold: too

sad but true it seems though


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #360253 - 02/08/10 07:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FurrowedBrow said:
Quote:

THEBats said:
Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.






Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.






I guess that's where the confusion came from.  :shrug:






Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I guess I should have reorganized that first statement to read "not 100% natural" to clarify. my bad





Quote:

niteowl said:
Spency, Harry I saw this and thought of y'all



:ilold:




yeah for most people, not me though :shrug:


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360263 - 02/08/10 07:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

it's really a shame how earth is really treated by people. i hate when someone is riding with me and has a plastic cup or something and just throws it out when they're done. i just tell them to put it in the floorboard and i'll get it later. i love bein out in the country where everything is cleaner. air smells better, you actually see an animal once in a while.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360264 - 02/08/10 07:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

did you watch the video Yrat posted?

I bet you attack him and ignore the science like Spency did earlier :smirk:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #360274 - 02/08/10 07:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Do I seem like the kind that ignores science? It's all I've ever dedicated my life to, it's pretty clear that you don't spend much time around here. I'll watch it right now but I'm a bit busy doing some research for class, I'll go back and forth.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360278 - 02/08/10 07:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

no rush


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360300 - 02/08/10 08:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"I'm a scientist, all scientists are skeptics.... Let the facts fall where they may... Science is NOT about consensus."

Great opening lines

Ok so I'm at the end of the first video now and I have to say :shrug:

I mean really... I've seen all those graphs 1000 times in class and I've heard people say exactly that 1000 times over while explaining those graphs. There is a significant warming trend in the last 150 years, but over a data set of 15,000 years it's not a significant correlation. The part that's important there, is that he's still not denying that we've experienced a phenomenally rapid rate of warming in the past 100 years.

I just basically see him doing exactly what every single person on both side of the issue (nay, every issue) does; selectively interpret the available data to make a point. he's clearly presenting a very persuasive and sided argument to a room full of people and he's obviously trying to make a stolid point of it.

:shrug: I guess I'll keep watching


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360321 - 02/08/10 08:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

video 2;

first thought, when he's showing the graph of 6 million years ago and pointing out how global temps are 2-3 degrees higher during the miocene than today, he's neglecting to mention that atmospheric CO2 concentrations at the time were around 1000-1500ppm.  Additionally, he's mentioning that during the pliocene era there was a slow but steady decrease in global temperatures.  now why might that be?  well, because a rise of C4 photosynthetic grasslands was occurring thanks to our lovely friend evolution (which niteowl probably doesn't subscribe to either :wink:) and through their more effective carbon fixation methods they were consuming much more of the atmospheric carbon dioxide than any organisms had done previously. A logical conclusion here IMO is that a decrease in atm CO2 lead to a decrease in global temperatures. or at the very least they happened at the same time.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/5429/876

I can't help but feel this omission slightly invalidates his entire argument :shrug:


I will admit that I was wrong on the rate of current warming and I'm not sure where I got that from... I must have misinterpreted a graph in class or misheard a teachers explanation but I have no problems admitting that was incorrect (assuming the graphs he's using are factual).


Would someone mind telling me if there's anything worth watching in the last two parts? I'm going to get back to my homework now but this guy is incredibly biased in his presentation. His consistent use of the word "alarmists" when referring to anyone not like-minded with him discredits his own interpretation of the data. He started the speech by saying that he has no opinion one way or another and now he's so pissed off and worked up that I can barely take him seriously.
(and for the record, I feel exactly the same way trying to watch Al Gore lecture the exact opposite side of the issue)


--------------------

Edited by Harry_Ba11sach (02/08/10 08:29 PM)

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360339 - 02/08/10 09:06 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

a rise of C4 photosynthetic grasslands was occurring thanks to our lovely friend evolution




And any current co2 in the atmosphere is a result of evolution.
That is what I was trying to say in the OP.

Organisms come and go through out the planets history
some drastically affect the environment, some don't

the current extinctions are nothing more than evolution playing itself out


nothing humans can do will dramatically harm the planet
some creatures will go extinct and others will come in to replace them

this has been going on far longer than humans have been here

the human condition to put himself above nature is mind boggling to me

are we polluting the planet? .... yes
is this a good thing? .... no
should we try and do better? ... yes
will it cause massive extinctions and devastation on a global scale ... :noway:

there have been far greater climate changes over Earths history and guess what, live still thrives


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #360341 - 02/08/10 09:16 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
will it cause massive extinctions and devastation on a global scale ... :noway:





Actually it very well could.  That said, life will go on as you continued to say.


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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.  :twobooks:

Edited by THEBats (02/08/10 09:16 PM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360345 - 02/08/10 09:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I mean really... I've seen all those graphs 1000 times in class and I've heard people say exactly that 1000 times over while explaining those graphs.....

I just basically see him doing exactly what every single person on both side of the issue (nay, every issue) does; selectively interpret the available data to make a point.




That's why you can't claim a firm stance on either side....yet people do.

If the theory is solid then the evidence will show it
but, in this case, the evidence is not conclusive either way

we have known that the earth has been coming out of an ice age for years
since we are living with it and can take 100% accurate readings
not estimating it from ice cores
we think we see something drastic, but when you step back and look at the whole thing rationally
what we are witnessing really isn't any more drastic than changes in the past

human arrogance wants to claim responsibility for it
for some strange and unknown reason

Quote:

There is a significant warming trend in the last 150 years, but over a data set of 15,000 years it's not a significant correlation. The part that's important there, is that he's still not denying that we've experienced a phenomenally rapid rate of warming in the past 100 years.




we do not have accurate enough records of past warmings to say one way or
another if we have experienced a phenomenally rapid rate of warming this time or not


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #360354 - 02/08/10 09:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

that's really not true man. we can count back every single individual year and tell within a degree or two what the average global temperature was. The resolution on those graphs is down to not more than 4-5 months at this point and the method for determining past temperature is extremely accurate too.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360479 - 02/09/10 12:11 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
that's really not true man. we can count back every single individual year and tell within a degree or two what the average global temperature was.




It is still not as accurate a measurement as we can get today
there is enough flexibility in your numbers for it to go either way
if it were a stone cold fact then there would be no debate

there are simply too may variables to claim that this warming trend
is greater than any other warming trend in the history of the planet
or that humans are responsible for it either, the numbers are not there

you can claim humans are putting X number of tons of co2 in the air daily
but you have no evidence as to weather or not it has (or will) harmed the planet


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #360625 - 02/09/10 07:39 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

No evidence that it has or will HARM the planet, but guaranteed scientific fact that it will AFFECT the planet. CO2 reflects IR radiation that has been emitted by our planet, cold hard fact :shrug:


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #360640 - 02/09/10 08:37 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The planet naturally goes through Iceages.

Now we are past the point of no return to where there will be NO more ice ages. Hence we fuckt up.

Check out the documentary Ice planet.

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Invisiblemhbound
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360641 - 02/09/10 08:38 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

We killed ourselves.


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Suck my balls America

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360650 - 02/09/10 09:33 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
The planet naturally goes through Iceages.





Didn't the ice age occur because of the giant meteorite?


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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #360665 - 02/09/10 10:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

There's been many ice ages.

Check out the documentary it explains everything better than I ever could.

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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360666 - 02/09/10 10:30 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

ehhh.

Ill recap.  White reflects, blue absorbs.

Ice reflects sunlight cooling the earth creating more ice. Until of course an ice age.

If there's not enough ice to cool the earth it just gets hotter. Common sense I know.

Well long story short there's not enough Ice and its just getting hotter.

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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: mhbound]
    #360669 - 02/09/10 10:34 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mhbound said:
:lol:

We killed ourselves.




Human extinction is probably the best thing that could ever happen.

In all actuality 98% of all species are now extinct.

MOther nature is all about survival of the fittest. We don't evolve as fast as we change the planet.

Curse our big brains.

Things like bacteria will be around forever though. The life cycle is so fast it has an upperhand on survival.

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: TomCollins]
    #360703 - 02/09/10 12:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Spency said:
Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
The planet naturally goes through Iceages.





Didn't the ice age occur because of the giant meteorite?




Ice ages occur for many reasons. Most notable Milankovitch cycles which are variations in earth's trajectory around the sun. most notable axial tilt variations (obliquity), eccentricity of our eliptical orbit, axial precession, Apsidal precession, and orbital inclination.


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360704 - 02/09/10 12:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
ehhh.

Ill recap.  White reflects, blue absorbs.







A whaaaa? blue is the reflection of light in the blue spectrum. every color reflects except black.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360712 - 02/09/10 12:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I meant heat.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360718 - 02/09/10 12:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I know. heat is a color


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360720 - 02/09/10 12:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

When your seeing blue caused by sunlight its only reflecting the blue waves that we see.

Absorbing the rest.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360721 - 02/09/10 12:40 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Why do they say to use green lights during night cycle?

Cause the plants reflect green. Hence, plants are green.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360788 - 02/09/10 02:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

umm yes? I know all this? why are you telling me?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360832 - 02/09/10 03:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
No evidence that it has or will HARM the planet, but guaranteed scientific fact that it will AFFECT the planet. CO2 reflects IR radiation that has been emitted by our planet, cold hard fact :shrug:




That's similar to the cold hard fact of marijuana having more tar and bad stuff than tobacco.
therefore marijuana smokers will have a higher rate of cancer

once all the evidence was looked at, they actually found the exact opposite
marijuana smokers do not have a higher risk of cancer than non smokers

you are like the anti-drug people taking one fact
and blowing it way out of fucking proportion

we are adding co2 to the planet, true
but you cant say one way or another
if the planet can adapt to it or not

you can't say with 100% accuracy
what affect we have had on the planet

their are simply too many variables to account for
you will never have all the numbers to make an accurate model

just like the 'Marijuana is more harmful than tobacco' argument
one must not jump to drastic conclusions based on a few simple facts


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

Edited by niteowl (02/09/10 03:43 PM)

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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #360931 - 02/09/10 05:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
umm yes? I know all this? why are you telling me?





I was telling you cause you jumped on me when I said blue things absorb heat. Which they do.




Everyone keeps talking about CO2 but I always thought it was from just plain old carbon monoxide.

In chemistry we learned it was really reactive. It forms really strong bonds and reacts photochemically to produce peroxy radicals.

Peroxy radicals react with nitrogen oxide.

THus increasing the ratio of NO2 to NO. Being that there is more NO2 means there's less NO to react to our ozone.

At least thats how I understood it.

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360959 - 02/09/10 06:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

sorry man I wasn't jumping on you, I was just trying to clarify but I get somewhat curt with my responses alot because I'm always rushing off somewhere


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #360992 - 02/09/10 06:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
umm yes? I know all this? why are you telling me?





I was telling you cause you jumped on me when I said blue things absorb heat. Which they do.




Everyone keeps talking about CO2 but I always thought it was from just plain old carbon monoxide.

In chemistry we learned it was really reactive. It forms really strong bonds and reacts photochemically to produce peroxy radicals.

Peroxy radicals react with nitrogen oxide.

THus increasing the ratio of NO2 to NO. Being that there is more NO2 means there's less NO to react to our ozone.

At least thats how I understood it.




:seriousbusiness:

we scientists don't take this shit lightly brah.


--------------------





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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #361496 - 02/10/10 06:42 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

New research into greenhouse effect challenges theory of man-made global warming

With an excellent aside to the corruption of corporate and political research.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DudeTron]
    #361498 - 02/10/10 07:03 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with what other people are saying here, and that is that natural evolution and extinction is based on a world where humans did not have such a huge impact on the earth ie: before major industrialization. Our destruction of ecosystems and habitat are surely affecting the rate at which species are becoming extinct and possibly driving many species to extinction that wouldn't of gone extinct without the human species causing them to.

I believe that in this modern day and age where humans have such a massive impact on the environment through things such as hunting, logging, fishing, waste dumping and all the gas' and fumes we output into the world, We Do have a responsibility to prevent animals becoming extinct as we do not know which ones would of died out naturally and which ones us humans as a species are driving to extinction.

With great power comes great responsibility.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Inbred_gimp]
    #361510 - 02/10/10 08:17 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So natural evolution is to stop
now that humans are here :whatever:

More arrogance from the primates


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #361512 - 02/10/10 08:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

he's not saying it's going to stop but rather that the forces we're able to impart on species are far more destructive than the natural forces that evolution generally deals with. Evolution is a very slow process which generally deals with issues such as mating, finding food, or surviving drought etc. Nothing on this planet is evolutionarily adapted to deal with a giant machine tearing down trees and destroying habitat by the thousands of square miles annually. literally, NOTHING on this planet can evolve to cope with that.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #361612 - 02/10/10 01:31 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Are you trying to say that humans are not natural, or are somehow above nature?

I can assure you that we are just as natural as a beaver building a damn.

Nothing we do is above nature
so any animal that goes extinct
due to human activity, is again
just a natural part of earths evolution

Trying to argue otherwise is more primate arrogance.


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #361625 - 02/10/10 01:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

While I agree with you fundamentally you're missing a VERY important point.
Of course we're natural, we're just another animal that evolved on this planet like everything else.

That being said, what we can do is absolutely not natural and is entirely unprecedented over the entire history of the planet.
Evolution is retroactive; what I mean by that genetic mutations such as a longer beak or shorter legs occur as random mutations and then current conditions cull out the weak ones. It does not mean that a gazelle can just be like "oh shit here come the humans, I better grow some wings so I can fly the fuck away from this place."
Natural evolution takes place over tens of thousands of years as (for example) the birds with the brightest colors breed the most, and eventually their offspring is the majority of the population and the entire species is bright and colorful.

It is absolutely NOT primate arrogance to think that we're different than other animals on the planet. in fact I would argue that saying we're the exact same as everything else on this planet is just dumbfoundingly ignorant (or intentionally blind). Name me another species that can extract and burn fossil fuels. Name me another species that can remove thousands of square miles of healthy intact forest in a year. Name me another species that can clear cut entire continents to cultivate food, distribute that food via roadways and generate electricity to harvest the grains at 10,000,000% efficiency compared to harvesting by hand. Hell, name me another species that has guns. Or the ability to mass-fish like we do with nets and cages. Name me another animal with even a SINGLE domesticated pet, let alone the hundreds we can claim (tens of thousands if you consider domesticated species for agriculture and livestock).

No matter how much you want to just be an innocent little animal doing whatever it wants in this world you have to recognize that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING in the entire history of this planet has EVER been capable of what we are. We have unbelievable sophisticated and powerful tools at our disposal that allow us to shape and alter this planet to suit OUR needs at a rate that was never before even conceivable.

The most incredible part about that is that only 200 years ago we had basically none of this. We did all of our farming by hand, we built our structures by hand, coal and gasoline had never even been thought of. Considering "natural" evolution takes thousands upon thousands of years to completely alter a species to better suit the environment, what makes you think everything on the planet is suddenly going to start evolving on a timescale of a century or two?

that, in my opinion is primate arrogance


--------------------

Edited by Harry_Ba11sach (02/10/10 02:00 PM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #361662 - 02/10/10 03:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Considering "natural" evolution takes thousands upon thousands of years to completely alter a species to better suit the environment




:whatever:

Then where are these new species coming from in places where we have used nukes?
These animals have adapted to their new environment in a matter of decades.

Evolution takes thousands and thousands of years ..... pssht

more primate arrogance thinking we know how shit works

And humans have been affecting the environment the day we conquered fire
When we started building ships and moving animals from point A to point B

To say that what we are doing now is unnatural is a blatant lie
it may be abnormal but it is far from unnatural my friend

To take on the stance that our existence on the planet
is to prevent animals from ever becoming extinct is foolish
that is placing us above nature and you cant do that

If that is your stance then you must be a Christian

If the basic teachings of evolution
is 'only the strong survive'
then aren't we doing something right

the only species that are on the verge of extinction are ones
that were close to that point prior to humans showing up
we are just speeding the process up a bit, noting to stress over

:wink:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #361670 - 02/10/10 03:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Considering "natural" evolution takes thousands upon thousands of years to completely alter a species to better suit the environment




:whatever:

Then where are these new species coming from in places where we have used nukes?
These animals have adapted to their new environment in a matter of decades.

Evolution takes thousands and thousands of years ..... pssht

more primate arrogance thinking we know how shit works






are you joking man? Do you seriously think we've been using nukes for thousands and thousands of years? that's literally the stupidest thing I think I've heard in years.

:whatever: We have so much information on evolution that you're completely insane to think we don't know how it works. Please go read up on the basic fundamentals of how a species changes to fit it's environment and then please rejoin this debate when you're educated enough to comprehend what's being said to you. I don't have time to be your Biology 1000 professor and this is simply a waste of my time.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #361694 - 02/10/10 04:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Then please explain the mutations and adaptations that happened at these nuke sites
animals adapted and have thrived in these 'hostile environments'

that is evolution happening in a matter of decades
not thousands and thousands of years man

Yes we have an 'idea' of how evolution works

we do NOT know he whole story on how evolution works though

it is arrogant to claim otherwise


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #361696 - 02/10/10 04:16 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

give me an example and I'll gladly work you through the process. I don't have time to search out every individual case and explain natural order to you.


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Edited by Harry_Ba11sach (02/10/10 04:17 PM)

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #361699 - 02/10/10 04:23 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I was watching a documentary on the Bikini Islands the other night
and they were talking about how there were many different species of coral
and even a new species of shark that had adapted to the environment

That is evolution happening in a matter of decades, there is no disputing that fact
these animals adapted and survived in these highly irradiated areas, quickly

that alone flys in the face of your thousands and thousands of years theory


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #361704 - 02/10/10 04:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Evolution happens every generation of life.

Think about it. Why would they have to come up with a new flu vaccine every year.

It's because the virus has evolved.

You inoculate a petri dish with bacteria. Place it in 90 degrees incubator.

All that survive have evolved too.

Take the same bacteria and put into 60 degrees.

All that survived have evolved too.

Evolution is dependent on the length of any given organisms life cycle.

Now if your talking whoops the polar ice caps melted. It would take a long time for us to evolve gills like Kevin Costner.

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #361894 - 02/10/10 07:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i just dont think that this is how we are supposed to be living.


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #361908 - 02/10/10 07:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
Now if your talking whoops the polar ice caps melted. It would take a long time for us to evolve gills like Kevin Costner.



:ilold: 

waterworld was a badass movie

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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Inbred_gimp]
    #361951 - 02/10/10 08:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Inbred_gimp said:
i just dont think that this is how we are supposed to be living.





Hemp to save the world!


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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #362151 - 02/11/10 05:22 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

To say that we've somehow broken the rules and now defy the ways of the earth is silly.  We are still of the earth and we can never NOT be a product of her... UNLESS you believe in creationism or extra-terrestrial intervention.

I love what DopeySmurf said....

We ARE a macro virus on the flesh of the Earth, and I'm still convinced we'll be dealt with accordingly... And if not, then we DID win whatever game was set in motion at the dawn of time...

Now personally, I am quite against the destruction of rare habitats, and think it's shortsighted the way we pollute (the great pacific garbage patch? are you fucking kidding me?) but I also feel that it's a very sentimental and cultural... I mean, is there really such thing as littering amongst acres and acres of concrete, steel and composite materials suffocating our land?

Also, Haven't WE evolved in the last 200 years?  Aren't we a bit taller, have larger breasts and different immune systems?

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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #362165 - 02/11/10 07:33 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

and what about all the deliberate extinctions that humans have done ?

small pox
polio

I didn't hear any people crying when we killed those organisms

but heaven forbid some rare squid in the deep goes extinct :stonedjerk:


--------------------
The Ego is a pathological condition
like a calcareous tumor or cyst
that begins growing in the personality
in the absence of hallucinogenic substances
-Terence McKenna-

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OfflineInbred_gimp
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Registered: 10/07/09
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #362169 - 02/11/10 07:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

my main belief on this issue is that the earth is alot more important than the human species and we should recognize that by nurturing it and not by pillaging it for its resources for our benefit, especially when we could get all the resources we need from environmentally friendly sources, Instead of sources like dwindling fossil fuels etc. talking about 'primate arrogance' i believe that real primate arrogance is things like logging and overfishing.


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #362178 - 02/11/10 08:41 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
and what about all the deliberate extinctions that humans have done ?

small pox
polio

I didn't hear any people crying when we killed those organisms

but heaven forbid some rare squid in the deep goes extinct :stonedjerk:




this is another example of you not fully comprehending how survival of the fittest goes. First, I don't think it's fair that we fully extinguished those species. That said, since they were organisms whose sole purpose was to cause destruction and death for the human race, we couldn't just stand by and let them kill us and thankfully we were able to stop them from doing just that. I only wish there was another intelligent species on this planet to do the same to us.


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InvisibleFurrowedBrowM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
    #362180 - 02/11/10 08:47 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

^There is.  It's called fungi!

Quote:

niteowl said:
and what about all the deliberate extinctions that humans have done ?

small pox
polio

I didn't hear any people crying when we killed those organisms

but heaven forbid some rare squid in the deep goes extinct :stonedjerk:




not to mention that america has the entire world trying to make the most useful plant in existence a thing of the past.  shit is wack.


--------------------





Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - Become a member!
The Growery's Herb Museum (post #24)
I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery.
~ Thomas Jefferson ~

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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #362190 - 02/11/10 09:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Humanity has fucked up morals :shrug:


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InvisibleInverted
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Registered: 06/01/08
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #362193 - 02/11/10 09:28 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm so high

The sun is shining

I'm happy

I like Harry's argument

:yesnod:


--------------------
Don't criticize what you can't understand

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Invisiblelegallyhomeless

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 217
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Inbred_gimp]
    #362197 - 02/11/10 09:41 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
and what about all the deliberate extinctions that humans have done ?

small pox
polio

I didn't hear any people crying when we killed those organisms

but heaven forbid some rare squid in the deep goes extinct :stonedjerk:




This is the last post I read and I just HAVE to comment now.

First of all polio was bad. Small pox, was bad. That squid isnt bad. Shit, it could be the very cure for the swine flu. You have NO idea.

next I would like to say that you are both right as far as evolution. Somethings take thousands of years. For instance, growing wings...

On the other hand... somethings can evolve more quickly, such as the coral you mentioned. It would be a weird world if everything evolved at the same rate. And actually if that was the case, then we would know exact time and dates that all animals would evolve.

and in that is the beauty of evolution.

Quote:

Inbred_gimp said:
my main belief on this issue is that the earth is alot more important than the human species and we should recognize that by nurturing it and not by pillaging it for its resources for our benefit, especially when we could get all the resources we need from environmentally friendly sources, Instead of sources like dwindling fossil fuels etc. talking about 'primate arrogance' i believe that real primate arrogance is things like logging and overfishing.




YES! I like you :cool:

maybe a few hundred years ago we didnt have the technology to gather resources responsibly but its 2010 bitches. We ARE moving in to the future and more and more people are realizing that while the earth IS big, its the only one and we are fucking it up to no end.

Sure we can live on mars maybe... maybe the moon, maybe another planet... but until we can learn to manage the one we have properly, then we SHOULD NOT even think about living on another planet.

Talk about taking things for granted..

"oh shit we killed the Earth, oh well we can find a new one" :facepalm:

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OfflineDudeTron
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Registered: 10/24/09
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Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #362997 - 02/12/10 05:36 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

How can a microbe be 'bad' ?
You're being emotional when you say that eradicating a virus is okay, but chopping down a giant sequoia is bad...

You can't be a cheerleader for humanity and then scoff at it's ignorance.

To whom would it matter if we DID blow up the Earth?  Maybe we'll donate a chunk to become mars' new moon and it'll become more suitable for life in the process... That would be the green thing to do right?

We're hurtling through space at unimaginable speeds dodging any number of catastrophes and destined for extinction... The thing is, only consciousness cares (if you believe) and yet is unaffected...

Again though, I'll say I do like this place and these experiences, and I wish we could go back to being in harmony with our home and live much more like the natives and other inhabitants of Earth...

I guess my final contribution to this thread is to always remember to think for yourself... Really question where your beliefs come from.  Note how specific and unwavering our cultural beliefs have become.  Everything is yes/no, red/blue, right/wrong... Just remember to really identify with the origins of your opinions, and never be afraid to form new ones...

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