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 Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08 
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal 
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 Re: Isn't extinction a good thing?  [Re: Yrat]
#359929 - 02/08/10 11:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm sorry I don't have time to watch those videos right now but I promise I will later. I saw the first 3 minutes and it looked promising at least.
I do however want to present a couple quick facts for you to ponder.
- CO2 absolutely does reflect and re-radiate infrared heat. This is a function of Rayleigh and Mie scattering of different electromagnetic wavelengths based on the size of the molecule they're impacting. it's not a debate, it's been proven over and over again in laboratory tests.
- We are dumping thousands of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.
What's the logical conclusion here? it's not that the current warming trend is 100% caused by humans, but it is an absolute fact that we are affecting it. the only debate is how much
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 THEBats
The Bridge Master
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#359994 - 02/08/10 01:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.
It seems that was the argument you were presenting though.
- CO2 absolutely does reflect and re-radiate infrared heat. This is a function of Rayleigh and Mie scattering of different electromagnetic wavelengths based on the size of the molecule they're impacting. it's not a debate, it's been proven over and over again in laboratory tests.
- We are dumping thousands of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.
These are undeniable however they're merely one single factor in which affects climate change. The whole argument I was making is not whether or not we are making an impact, because we are, but rather if the current media hypothesis of uncontrollable warming is congruent with the evidence presented. Also you would think Al Gore, if he was really concerned with global warming, would invest his money into something other than selling carbon offsets...
That said the argument is really pointless because either way it serves our best interests to look for and invest in renewable resources as well as minimize and repair our impact on the planet.
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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day. 
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
#359997 - 02/08/10 02:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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oh you were talking about the media? well yeah, fuck them  The media is almost never correct on anything in my experience.
however, the science is always sound. sure, those two guys got caught falsifying data, but those were two dudes out of the hundreds of thousands of respectable and honorable scientists in the field. there are bad apples in every bunch but that doesn't mean the entire demographic is untrustworthy
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THEBats
The Bridge Master
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
#360000 - 02/08/10 02:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah well my argument was more focused on the media hypothesis of humans to be the sole cause of this warming trend and also using scare tactics. It just always discerns me when hidden agendas are present and people are profiting off of these methods. Especially in the manner of selling carbon credits, or energy saver cfls, which although they do in fact save energy they're quite harmful when gotten rid of in landfills.
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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
#360003 - 02/08/10 02:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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yep. and carbon credits are retarded. How does purchasing the right to pollute extra actually accomplish anything "green"?
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.
Example; July 2008 was the first month in around 74 years (I think, I'm going from memory here) to be completely devoid of a single sunspot. Sunspots increase the total energy coming towards our planet so this could account for 2008 being an uncharacteristically cold year. However, it was also the start of the El Nino Southern Oscillation where the pacific thermocline alters angle of inclination (and thus energy transfer from the equator poleward). Who's to say which one is more to blame for the lowest temperatures of the decade that year?
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THEBats
The Bridge Master
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360009 - 02/08/10 02:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.
Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.
I guess that's where the confusion came from. 
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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
#360010 - 02/08/10 02:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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I guess I should have reorganized that first statement to read "not 100% natural" to clarify. my bad
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,041
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: THEBats]
#360216 - 02/08/10 07:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
THEBats said:
Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.
Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.
I guess that's where the confusion came from.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#360238 - 02/08/10 07:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Spency, Harry I saw this and thought of y'all
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The Ego is a pathological conditionlike a calcareous tumor or cystthat begins growing in the personalityin the absence of hallucinogenic substances-Terence McKenna-
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FarBeyondDriven
Truthfully, I'm a bullshitter
Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 13,834
Loc: Greenbow, Alabama
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
#360249 - 02/08/10 07:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Spency, Harry I saw this and thought of y'all
too
sad but true it seems though
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#360253 - 02/08/10 07:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
FurrowedBrow said:
Quote:
THEBats said:
Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
I would never argue that we're the sole cause because the planet's climatic system is far too intricate for us to ever pinpoint a single cause.
Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
If you had done even the slightest bit of research on the topic you would know that the current warming trend is 100% NOT natural.
I guess that's where the confusion came from.
Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
I guess I should have reorganized that first statement to read "not 100% natural" to clarify. my bad
Quote:
niteowl said:
Spency, Harry I saw this and thought of y'all
yeah for most people, not me though
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FarBeyondDriven
Truthfully, I'm a bullshitter
Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 13,834
Loc: Greenbow, Alabama
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360263 - 02/08/10 07:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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it's really a shame how earth is really treated by people. i hate when someone is riding with me and has a plastic cup or something and just throws it out when they're done. i just tell them to put it in the floorboard and i'll get it later. i love bein out in the country where everything is cleaner. air smells better, you actually see an animal once in a while.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360264 - 02/08/10 07:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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did you watch the video Yrat posted?
I bet you attack him and ignore the science like Spency did earlier 
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The Ego is a pathological conditionlike a calcareous tumor or cystthat begins growing in the personalityin the absence of hallucinogenic substances-Terence McKenna-
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
#360274 - 02/08/10 07:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do I seem like the kind that ignores science? It's all I've ever dedicated my life to, it's pretty clear that you don't spend much time around here. I'll watch it right now but I'm a bit busy doing some research for class, I'll go back and forth.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360278 - 02/08/10 07:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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no rush
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The Ego is a pathological conditionlike a calcareous tumor or cystthat begins growing in the personalityin the absence of hallucinogenic substances-Terence McKenna-
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360300 - 02/08/10 08:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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"I'm a scientist, all scientists are skeptics.... Let the facts fall where they may... Science is NOT about consensus."
Great opening lines
Ok so I'm at the end of the first video now and I have to say
I mean really... I've seen all those graphs 1000 times in class and I've heard people say exactly that 1000 times over while explaining those graphs. There is a significant warming trend in the last 150 years, but over a data set of 15,000 years it's not a significant correlation. The part that's important there, is that he's still not denying that we've experienced a phenomenally rapid rate of warming in the past 100 years.
I just basically see him doing exactly what every single person on both side of the issue (nay, every issue) does; selectively interpret the available data to make a point. he's clearly presenting a very persuasive and sided argument to a room full of people and he's obviously trying to make a stolid point of it.
I guess I'll keep watching
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360321 - 02/08/10 08:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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video 2;
first thought, when he's showing the graph of 6 million years ago and pointing out how global temps are 2-3 degrees higher during the miocene than today, he's neglecting to mention that atmospheric CO2 concentrations at the time were around 1000-1500ppm. Additionally, he's mentioning that during the pliocene era there was a slow but steady decrease in global temperatures. now why might that be? well, because a rise of C4 photosynthetic grasslands was occurring thanks to our lovely friend evolution (which niteowl probably doesn't subscribe to either  ) and through their more effective carbon fixation methods they were consuming much more of the atmospheric carbon dioxide than any organisms had done previously. A logical conclusion here IMO is that a decrease in atm CO2 lead to a decrease in global temperatures. or at the very least they happened at the same time.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/5429/876
I can't help but feel this omission slightly invalidates his entire argument
I will admit that I was wrong on the rate of current warming and I'm not sure where I got that from... I must have misinterpreted a graph in class or misheard a teachers explanation but I have no problems admitting that was incorrect (assuming the graphs he's using are factual).
Would someone mind telling me if there's anything worth watching in the last two parts? I'm going to get back to my homework now but this guy is incredibly biased in his presentation. His consistent use of the word "alarmists" when referring to anyone not like-minded with him discredits his own interpretation of the data. He started the speech by saying that he has no opinion one way or another and now he's so pissed off and worked up that I can barely take him seriously.
(and for the record, I feel exactly the same way trying to watch Al Gore lecture the exact opposite side of the issue)
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Edited by Harry_Ba11sach (02/08/10 08:29 PM)
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360339 - 02/08/10 09:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
a rise of C4 photosynthetic grasslands was occurring thanks to our lovely friend evolution
And any current co2 in the atmosphere is a result of evolution.
That is what I was trying to say in the OP.
Organisms come and go through out the planets history
some drastically affect the environment, some don't
the current extinctions are nothing more than evolution playing itself out
nothing humans can do will dramatically harm the planet
some creatures will go extinct and others will come in to replace them
this has been going on far longer than humans have been here
the human condition to put himself above nature is mind boggling to me
are we polluting the planet? .... yes
is this a good thing? .... no
should we try and do better? ... yes
will it cause massive extinctions and devastation on a global scale ... 
there have been far greater climate changes over Earths history and guess what, live still thrives
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The Ego is a pathological conditionlike a calcareous tumor or cystthat begins growing in the personalityin the absence of hallucinogenic substances-Terence McKenna-
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THEBats
The Bridge Master
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,488
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: niteowl]
#360341 - 02/08/10 09:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
will it cause massive extinctions and devastation on a global scale ...
Actually it very well could. That said, life will go on as you continued to say.
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kickin-two-hundo said:
you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.
Edited by THEBats (02/08/10 09:16 PM)
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,765
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Re: Isn't extinction a good thing? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#360345 - 02/08/10 09:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
I mean really... I've seen all those graphs 1000 times in class and I've heard people say exactly that 1000 times over while explaining those graphs.....
I just basically see him doing exactly what every single person on both side of the issue (nay, every issue) does; selectively interpret the available data to make a point.
That's why you can't claim a firm stance on either side....yet people do.
If the theory is solid then the evidence will show it
but, in this case, the evidence is not conclusive either way
we have known that the earth has been coming out of an ice age for years
since we are living with it and can take 100% accurate readings
not estimating it from ice cores
we think we see something drastic, but when you step back and look at the whole thing rationally
what we are witnessing really isn't any more drastic than changes in the past
human arrogance wants to claim responsibility for it
for some strange and unknown reason
Quote:
There is a significant warming trend in the last 150 years, but over a data set of 15,000 years it's not a significant correlation. The part that's important there, is that he's still not denying that we've experienced a phenomenally rapid rate of warming in the past 100 years.
we do not have accurate enough records of past warmings to say one way or
another if we have experienced a phenomenally rapid rate of warming this time or not
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The Ego is a pathological conditionlike a calcareous tumor or cystthat begins growing in the personalityin the absence of hallucinogenic substances-Terence McKenna-
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