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OfflineTrueHerbCrystal
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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #365447 - 02/16/10 09:04 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Good point, my friend.

I guess its OK to *stress your plant sometimes, like with water. Promotes better growth of the roots. I get it now...its searching for water, and thats why the roots branch out *farther....

Speaking of braching out, I'm think about supplemental CO2 with baking soda, and vinegar on a drip line system (this will be OK, right?). Do you think that is a good idea? I haven't done any research on the actual chemical reaction of baking soda and vinegar, but I know its mostly CO2 as the product...is there any other trace gases from that reaction that could be harmful to my plant??

Also, what about feeding the plant carbonated water (as a source of CO2 and water), is that a bad idea? Just experimenting.

Let me know if you think thats silly or a good plan....

Slightly Experimental
~ TrueHerbCrystal ~


Edited by TrueHerbCrystal (02/18/10 07:58 AM)


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #365457 - 02/16/10 09:12 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
to be honest, you'd be better off just letting the plant dry out completely for 2-3 days between waterings at this point to encourage root growth. it seems pretty likely to me that your plant will end up over-watered even at 1 drip per 10 seconds. the worst issue here is not that the plant growth might be stunted (in all honesty the plant itself will most likely look fine), but root growth is encouraged only when the plant is stressed for water. if the plant is too wet then the roots won't have incentive to grow and your yields and flowering time will both suffer as a result.




That is EXACTLY what I was going to say.  :thumbup:


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Inverted]
    #365458 - 02/16/10 09:13 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

My containers are only moist for 1 out of every 4 days... lol

It really does get oxygen to the roots better and the roots go searching for moisture, then you feed them and they explode.  I repeat this cycle over and over and it gives you a much faster growth rate overall.


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #365461 - 02/16/10 09:13 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TrueHerbCrystal said:

I guess its OK to stre your plant sometimes, like with water. Promotes better growth of the roots. I get it now...its searching for water, and thats why the roots branch out father....





exactly

Quote:

TrueHerbCrystal said:

Speaking of braching out, I'm think about supplemental CO2 with baking soda, and vinegar on a drip line system (this will be OK, right?). Do you think that is a good idea? I haven't done any research on the actual chemical reaction of baking soda and vinegar, but I know its mostly CO2 as the product...is there any other trace gases from that reaction that could be harmful to my plant.

Also, what about feeding the plant carbonated water (as a source of CO2 and water), is that a bad idea? Just experimenting.







The baking soda and vinegar is a great idea and I've heard of many people using it with success. it's not really cost effective, but if you have some spare cash to burn I've heard it definitely increases the growth rates. I've done it myself in the past and thought my plants looked much healthier :thumbup:

however---> DO NOT feed with carbonated water. most likely the CO2 will react down to carbonate (CO3) and donate the remaining O atom to latent nitrogen to form nitrates and nitrites, all three of which will lower your pH very dramatically. Also, roots don't like CO2, the roots actually pump excess carbon from the leaves into the soil and they uptake O2 in the process. roots love O2, dislike carbon. :yesnod:


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #365484 - 02/16/10 09:26 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

ya dont water with vinegar and baking soda!!!! dont worry abotu adding CO2  remember KISS. seems to be what you need to think about!!


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OfflineTrueHerbCrystal
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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #365494 - 02/16/10 09:30 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, so roots like O2 but dislike CO2...interesting. That's right, CO2 is absorbed thru the leaves, not the roots. I forget the teachings of my Botony class...memory is slippin'.

So the Vinegar+baking soda is a good idea...sweet! The box of B. Soda was pretty cheap, just need to get vinegar. But I'm guessing I'll need A LOT to make it work...I guess I'll just use it sometimes.

Also, is there such thing as too much CO2 for a plant?

My guess is that back in prehistoric times like pre-dinosaurs, the current theory is that the Earth was saturated with CO2 with little O2 in the air, so plants adjusted to those conditions. And my guess is that Cannabis has been around for a long time and potentially has that adaption to handle those CO2 levels. HOWEVER, it likely didn't exist Millions of Years ago, such as before the Jurassic period, when giant ferns ruled the Earth because angiosperms, or "flowering plants" like MJ are new in Earth's biological timeline. 

Basically, what I'm asking is this: Can too high levels of CO2 be posionous to my plant? And are those levels even possible with just a baking soda+vinegar reaction?

Maybe I'm just too paranoid, but I'd love to know Mr. Harry Knowlege man...or maybe you know Inverted...

Biological History is :awesome:!
~ TrueHerbCrystal ~


Edited by TrueHerbCrystal (02/18/10 07:59 AM)


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #365502 - 02/16/10 09:34 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Major bonus points for using the word angiosperm :thumbup:

While you are correct that cannabis is an angiosperm, it's also a eudicot, which as you may know evolved after monocots on our planet. Cannabis is extremely new as far as the geologic timeline goes. 10,000 years seems like a long time to us but it's honestly beans compared to the entire history of life on earth.

That being said, cannabis is also a C4 plant, which in short means that they have more effective photosynthetic pathways for converting water, sunlight and carbon dioxide into usable carbohydrates.

summary; it should be fine no matter how much you CO2 you give it. however, the extra CO2 will only be utilized if there are sufficient levels of light and nutrients so the plant has somewhere to use all the carbon.


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: the man]
    #365562 - 02/16/10 10:12 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

i highly doubt it will do much of anything adding co2 to such a small grow.
1. air circulation will such it out faster then you produce it.
2. the levels need to be sustained. you cant just put higher concentration for a few minutes a day and expect the plant to utilize it.
3. there is PLENTY of Co2 kickin around as it is. esp if your in a city.

KISS

but its up to you. if you were making wine or something and had that enter the top of your grow room would be ok (bit more constant and not costing anything, but again air moves so fast out of there dont think it would do anything).remember it sinks! i work in the isotope field and part of what i do is ancient productivity and carbon cycling. Its under debate if higher concentrations of CO2 would actually make trees grow bigger ect. i truly dont think its worth the effort for you. anyway to each there own :smile:


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OfflineShroomieGirl
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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: the man]
    #365650 - 02/16/10 10:57 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

enjoying your grow so far... def keep us updated :thumbup:


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OfflineTrueHerbCrystal
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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #365787 - 02/17/10 12:34 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
Major bonus points for using the word angiosperm :thumbup:

While you are correct that cannabis is an angiosperm, it's also a eudicot, which as you may know evolved after monocots on our planet. Cannabis is extremely new as far as the geologic timeline goes. 10,000 years seems like a long time to us but it's honestly beans compared to the entire history of life on earth.



Thanks Harry. I like to drop some knowledge where apporiate, hopefully someone will learn something from my journal....

As for eudicot, never heard of that before....I've heard of monocot (1 leaf or cotyledon on sprouting seedling) and dicot (2 leaves on baby seedling), is and I know that the prefix "eu-" stands for "complex" like the term "eukaryote", so from that I'm guessing any plant that has more than 1 cotyledon leaf is considered more complex than a monocot, therefor its a eudicot. Does that logic make sense?

Also, since its "Eu-", there seems to be no number attached to it like dicot: are there plants that grow more than 2 cotyledons? Is that why they are called eudicots and not dicots?

And yes, you're right, 10,000 years is barely a grain of sand in Earth's ancient sand clock. I mean, the current geological theory for the age of our planet says that Earth is 4.7 Billion years old. That is a ridiculous amount of time. 10,000 years is only 0.000002% of Earth's total age. Its crazy to think how little that is and how long Earth has been around. And its more funny that we are worried about the Planet and Global Warming when the Earth has been pulverized by huge astroids in the past...we should be worried about the life on the planet. That's what really matters. Earth is tough, and can handle pretty much anything. But that's a completely different argument altogether....

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
That being said, cannabis is also a C4 plant, which in short means that they have more effective photosynthetic pathways for converting water, sunlight and carbon dioxide into usable carbohydrates.



I've heard of that before "C4" on a journal article about the efficiency of corn in the production of ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Is that the most advance cycle yet, the "C4" cycle?

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
summary; it should be fine no matter how much you CO2 you give it. however, the extra CO2 will only be utilized if there are sufficient levels of light and nutrients so the plant has somewhere to use all the carbon.



-Cool, no dangerous CO2 levels. I didn't think I could make that much CO2 anyway with just B.S. and Vinegar. I also talk to my plant sometimes,to improve the CO2 levels but also for my own self-therapy. Its interesting what things I say to the plant: she's like my therapist that doesn't say anything back (like a real therapist).
Quote:

the man said:

highly doubt it will do much of anything adding co2 to such a small grow.
1. air circulation will such it out faster then you produce it.
2. the levels need to be sustained. you cant just put higher concentration for a few minutes a day and expect the plant to utilize it.
3. there is PLENTY of Co2 kickin around as it is. esp if your in a city.

KISS




Exactly my thoughts and good tips too. I'll try to make the CO2 output constant, which should go well with the drip system, however, I need some way to slowly mix B.S. with the vinegar a little at the time.

And thanks for the KISS, I guess, manlove right? I'd prefer a girl's kiss, but I take what I get!

Or is that an acronym? Never seen that one before....let me take some guesses....

K.I.S.S. = Kollect Inverted's Sound Science  (nah, too specific but it does make sense)

K.I.S.S. = Koncentrate Investigate Sink or Swim  (could be this one)

K.I.S.S. = Keep It Swanky, Socrates    (could be, but doesn't make sense)

K.I.S.S. = Keep Inside to Skip Suicide    (it rhymes so that's got to be it, but it still a little vague.)

Wait....I got it!

K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple, Silly!  :smile2::awedance:

oH, I see young grasshopper....I understand the ways of the master now....I will keep my project simple, in the most intricate way possible. :thumbup:

Quote:

ShroomieGirl said:
enjoying your grow so far... def keep us updated



Its an honor, and a privilage to have such a kind young women following my journal. Thank you ShroomieGirl, I will try to keep it updated,
but the journal entries are getting a little too time-consuming for me, I guess I just gotta KISS it up :wink:.

By the way, you got any shroom-growing projects going on right now? I would Love to watch your grows and see where it goes....Because like the late, Great HippieGirl said "Girls can do it too!". So true H.Girl, so true....

Keep Irony Surreal Sensified
~ TrueHerbCrystal ~


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #365896 - 02/17/10 05:33 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

haha goof ball...


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: the man]
    #365904 - 02/17/10 07:18 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Another problem I see with the drip system (sorry man) is that it will change as your plant starts consuming more water, becoming more of a pain in the ass than just hand watering... BUT, it would be pretty cool to have dialed in if you wanted to go on vacation or something.

Your cab is lookin pretty sweet though, and your frugality is fucking commendable. DIY FTW!
Glad to be aboard for this one...  :thumbup:


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #366610 - 02/17/10 08:40 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

no grows going on right now (just moved and didnt keep anything going during the move... but i will by next month if all goes well


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #368947 - 02/20/10 09:36 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, I see ShroomieGirl...Well, when you do, let me know: you know I'll be following your grows. Girls doing grows are so rare in these hobbies, and if your Black, Asian, Native American, or any other minority ethnicity, you get major points, because that means you're even rarer....

When you do start, I send you good luck. :laugh:

My Much-Needed Journal Entry

I tried to make a Journal Entry on Friday, but there was a problem with the photo uploading by the Growery. But today, its working great, so I'm making a long one today.

*** Seedling Now a Young Plant: First Signs of Stress ***

Seed was planted on: Febuary 5
Today's Date: Febuary 20, 2010
Day 15

Health: First leaves are showing stress at tips. Those bottom Leaves feel dry, rough, and stiff to the touch.

- Since so much has changed in the past three days, I am going to post photos from Wednesday, Febuary 17 to Saturday, Febuary 20 (today) to show
the progress to the stress in sequential order.

Lets take a short trip thru time....

Wednesday, Febuary 17, 2010 at 4:20pm (:leaf:)

^Notice Pretty purple coloring under leaf on last photo. I wonder what's that from. :strokebeard:

Thrusday, Febuary 18, 2010

^Tiny leaves coming out near the first leaves.

Friday, Febuary 19, 2010

^I noticed some yellowing on the cotelydons. Not sure if thats supposed to happen, but since cotelydons are only really used for when the seedling is *just* sprouting out of the ground, I think I can safely assume that its not a bad thing. It might just be a natural process, like how childern lose their teeth: it could be just shedding its baby leaves. Other than this minor cotelydon yellowing, plant is looking healthier than ever.

^ On Friday, there seems to be leaves coming out from every little corner and cerves on the little plant, in almost a psychedelic fractal pattern. Sometimes I just stare at her and be amazed at her intricate beauty.... looking quite healthy: green leaves, just enough water, stem is getting wider, leaves are soft to touch, and of course, little leaves coming out in every little spot. I love my little green daughter...she's getting so big, so fast!

...And now, the most current, just taken today.

Today: Saturday, Febuary 20, 2010


^Amazing how one day can change so much. I should note the local weather: dry and very sunny outside, like its summer almost. I sure this is affecting the health of the plant, and because of the dry conditions outside, I would argue my plant is humidity-stressed, meaning the rH is too low (in the photos, the gauge reads 'Humidity: 35%'). I also wondered if it could be a light problem because those leaves are turning a little yellow, and because I raised the height of my wooden light by about 1 inch because my plant could not fit underneath the wood no more. But because the leaves were so dry, I don't think the lack of light is the main cause.

- You can clearly see the stress in the last 2 photos. I felt the leaves with my fingers, they felt stiff, dry and a little rough, unlike the green ones that feel soft and
smooth.

>>> In order to try to increase the humidity near the plant, I descided to use the humidity creator of choice I use for growing mushrooms, perlite. So, I grab a metal container I used for casing mycelium and used some of that bare copper wire to poke lots of holes on every side like the "shotgun terrium" design, to aid in air-flow.

Like this:


Then I made a blend of 24 fl. oz. of water to 1 fl. oz. H202 3%.


After blending, I poured it on some perlite using a strainer, and then drained it then filled the modified metal tray. Next, I the tray on a dinner plate, and put it near my plant, in front of my 12" desktop cooling fan. Like so...


Hopefully this will help. If not, I might have to add some more or even get my aquarium pump out and put the air stone inside a jar filled with perlite. If I'm lucky, that will do some rH increasing....

Or better yet, hopefully it rains on Sunday or later and increasing the rH in the atmosphere. Might have to start following the weather forecasts now: how strange.

What I've Learned: Even for indoor grows, the outside weather (like in my case, hot high 70F's temps and low humidity) can positively or negatively affect the plants health, which makes indoor grows not as simple as I once thought.

Other than my slightly-stressed plant, I have been adding on some things to improve my grow area.

>>> Construction: Minor Improvements <<<

Some things I improved to my grow space....

1)
Reflection: I found some reflective tape (that's used for venting applications) that I used for a rave costume project awhile ago, and applied it to different parts of the wooden frame and on my homemade "reflection wall" to improve light guidance.



2) Light-Focuing: I added some double-stick tape in-between the Mylar layers above my lights to improve the light focusing. Before, they were seperated and "free-floating", and had there own crumpled up "focusing" thing going on. Hopefully, this should help in directing the light more towards the plant, instead of just everywhere.


3) Steathling: I covered up some pretty major light leaks coming threw the top door crack with black trash bags taped together (I keep the room's door open for better air-flow). I also put a black T-shirt on the ground where the doors meets the carpet (not pictured, but you get the idea).


I'll be back in a couple days to give another update my plant, and if its health is getting better or not. Only time will tell....

I Hope She'll Be OK
~ TrueHerbCrystal ~


Edited by TrueHerbCrystal (02/21/10 02:15 AM)


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #369316 - 02/21/10 03:16 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Looks like heat stress, and starving for some nitrogen.  That's just IMO though.

When I am hardening plants off outside the leaves taco up like that until they are used to the higher intensity light.  Did you set her in the sun when it was shining?  That would do it, so would having the CFL's too close.  Other than that the yellowing from the cotelydons up to the bottom leaves of the plant would be a clear indication that she is hungry for some food.  I'd say she is big enough for a 1/4-1/2 strength feeding, depending on what you are feeding with.

Looks like a good pace though!  A fast grower that's for sure.  :thumbup:


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Inverted]
    #369372 - 02/21/10 04:10 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I feel kinda bad I read the update right when you posted it and totally missed the question you asked until Inverted just answered it sorry.

I will second him and I will add that when your are getting vigorous new growth sometimes the new leaves can look a bit deficient or stressed for a day or two till they totally flatten out and mature a bit. I totally flipped when mine started doing something similar, turned out to be just low RH and an insatiable thirst for food.


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Inverted]
    #369547 - 02/21/10 06:58 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

That does make sense Inverted, especially the heat stress, because the temps outside felt like summer, and indoors inside the grow area, it was like 80F. And I haven't been using any fertilizers AT ALL as of yet because I was afraid of burning the roots, but it sounds like my plants ready for some now.

I read in your "Magash's Test Run" Grow journal that you use "Neptune's Harvest - Organic Fish and Seaweed fertilizer.  It has worked wonders in the past and I finally got a hold of some.  I recommend it to anyone. I think the N-P-K is
(2-3-1), so I use it until the last week of flower.", so I'll be looking for that brand/type.
  If I can't find that "Neptune" brand (I think I saw it at my local nursury, but can't be sure), will any fertilizer with a Nitrogen-Phosphorus-Potassium nutrient ratio of (2-3-1) work just as good?
Also, is that Neptune stuff liquid fertilizer? That's that type I was planning on using.

As for any sunlight, I have never put it outside, and never will. I would love to: its been very sunny lately, especially for my town. Sadly, I can't: there are *way* too many people living around me, I know something bad would happen if someone saw my plant. I was also thinking maybe my added reflective tape I put right near the lights may be reflecting heat more than light, causing too much heat.

Whatever the cause, I will be buying some food for her real soon, some time next week I think.

So its a fast grower huh? Good to know! Hopefully in a couple weeks, there will be some big enough branches I can cut to make a few clones. Thanks for the help Inverted.

Pha3r0 said:
"I feel kinda bad I read the update right when you posted it and totally missed the question you asked until Inverted just answered it sorry."

- Don't worry about it Phar3ro, I actually didn't write my plant problem in a form of a question, but I should of. I didn't state my issue very well: next time, I'll do better. I'm glad to hear that you saw a similar thing happen to your plant, which low rH and lack-of-food was the problem. Those are 2 other things I haven't payed much attention to, but will now. Thanks for tthe info Pha3r0.

*** Young Plant Status: Outer Leaves Still Stressed ***

Date:
Febuary 21, 2010
Day 16

The outer leaves still look dry and look like they are about to die. I also noticed some yellowing at the top of the plant. I watered the soil till it was almost completely wet in an attempt to get some water back into the outer leaves. Probably won't help, considering the advice Inverted and Pha3r0 said. Looks like I need to improve the cooling and get some liquid fertilizer. I will be in search of some fertil. some time next week.

~ TrueHerbCrystal ~


Edited by TrueHerbCrystal (02/21/10 07:00 PM)


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #369568 - 02/21/10 07:12 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

How close do you have your CFL's.  I noticed a lot of minor problems that all stemmed from having my lighting rig too close.  It's not the intense light that fucks with them, rather it's the ambient heat put off by the bulbs being that close.  I used to grow plants within 2", but recently changed that to at least 3-4 inches.  I get the same tight internode distances, but the plants seem to be less stress and like Pha3ro said, the new growth tends to look wrinkled and ragged until it grows out a little bit, and become smooth and darker green.  I notice the new growth to be lighter yellow than the old growth when my plants are rapidly growing.  It's the taco leaves and yellowing at the bottom that has me concerned.

Try backing the lights off by an inch or two and let her be.


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: Inverted]
    #369609 - 02/21/10 07:34 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I measured the distance: its at about 1.375 Inches from the bottom of the bulbs to the top of the plant. I glad I finally measured: that's way too close. I'll raise it up to 3" from top of canopy right now.

Its hard gauging the distance inside my wooden light frame, but I made some markings on the outside so I know next time.

Thanks Inverted, I guess its was getting scorched by the heat given off by CFL's. Too bad they aren't as efficient as they should be: zero heat would be the best. Maybe better technologies will come out in the future that will change that. For now, larger distances and cooling are required: thats chemistry and thermal dynamics for ya.

And about that Fertilizer: is Neptune liquid? And is a 2-3-1 ratio perfect for vegging?

Adjusting in Progress.
~ TrueHerbCrystal ~


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Re: All CFL Semi-Auto Closet Project (FirstGrow)('Flower' Seed) [Re: TrueHerbCrystal]
    #369654 - 02/21/10 08:26 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Oh yeah sorry I forgot to answer those.

Yea it's pureed and filtered, so it's like a really thick liquid, that smells like dead fish.  :lol:

Those NPK values are very low compared to chemical ferts.  For example my chemical bloom fertilizer is 9-50-10. 

They sell it at my local hydro store.  http://www.midwesthydroponics.com/nutrients/multi-purpose-nutrients/neptune-s-harvest-fish-seaweed.html


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