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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Questions about coco coir
    #730876 - 05/10/14 12:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Every time my coir starts to dry out and I re-water, the runoff is a very reddish "rust" color. It eventually runs clear after Ive put enough water through it, but the very next time I water its very dark again. I do flush my coir with very hot water for awhile to remove salt and then room temp RO water until it runs clear before I plant. But then once it dries and needs re-watering its rusty again.

After a few weeks of this it starts to run clear every time and Ive noticed while its still running out rusty my plants growth are stunted but once it finally starts to runoff clear all the time(or close to it) they grow fine.

Any suggestions or is this normal?


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:firecum:


Edited by bEelzeBosS (09/17/14 10:55 AM)


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InvisibleInocuole
The Wind Fish

Registered: 01/29/14
Posts: 212
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #730924 - 05/10/14 05:37 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Good question, I was wondering this as well.


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InvisibleZombi3
Greenhouse Technician
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Registered: 01/15/13
Posts: 1,222
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Re: Question about coco coir [Re: Inocuole]
    #730940 - 05/10/14 08:14 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

What kind of set up is this? Hydro? Drip irrigation?


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* Die For Your Government *


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InvisiblephychotronM
weed pimp


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,491
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Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS] * 1
    #730956 - 05/10/14 10:25 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I've used brick coco once, it was horrible. I had already tried a bagged/prepped coco (readygro by Botanicare) and knew what it was capable of. Since then I've never considered using the brick. I go mostly for the Canna Coco since I'm already on their nutrients, but also they have the highest standards when it comes to coco. House and garden makes a decent one too, and there are a few others that work, but its not that much more $ when you plan on reusing it 3-5 times. I dont know about that reddish color from the brick but I've never seen it with the 'premium' stuff. Canna is fresh water rinsed and ensured that its ready for use, treated with cal/mg, trichoderma fungi and salt free. Its aggregated to hold the perfect moisture/air balance. I'm not sure how far other brands go with their coco, but theres a long few month long process it has to go through, and one easily skimped on. 

Canna makes a brick treatment called CoGr that is suppose to work good if you want to use bricks and do the wash work, but I can't find myself to want to save that little bit of cash and add a shit ton of work. You'd probably just need the buffering agent if you didn't want to switch nutrients (but they have a good line, simple and effective). When I reuse the bag coco they say to treat it with a double dose of cannaZym the day before, sifting the roots out with a net pot works amazing. It takes sometimes a few days for the plant to adjust slightly, but its generally well received. The hard part is getting enough nutrients into the coco at first. I start out with full strength right from the go, or 2/3rds strength if I'm 'feelin it' for a 650-900ppm solution. It usually always needs full strength nutrients from the go. Even clones get that dosage when coming out of the aerocloner and into the coco. Coco is, or should be, so inert that the plants start to yellow and die from lack of nutrients immediately after rooting.


Definitely not normal for your plants to grow like shit for awhile while your coco adjusts. It wasn't ready to use if its doing that sort of thing with just water through it.


Advanced nutrients has a red tint to it that is hard to flush out entirely. Most nutrients have some sort of color that will indicate how flushed they are, Canna is light green. It doesn't seem like thats the problem though.


The cheapest I've found the 50L Canna Coco online is $36 after shipping. Its $30 after tax at the hydro store. hydro stores will do the 40L bags for $20 of House and Garden coco which is next in line. I use ~2.5 bags of the Canna to fill six 5 gallon pots @ ~4gal each. Its only about $100 per year in coco when you reuse it. I have two batches going back and forth and will add fresh coco to fill the pots all the way, but usually I start the clones in the new stuff if I can.


So my suggestion is to start with a 'premium' ready to use coco and see how that compares. Canna support also suggested not to use perlite with their product line, or very sparingly. They formulated the mix for that ideal air-moisture balance in order to eliminate using perlite. Botanacare's Readygro comes in two mixes, I've only used the aeration formula that was 50/50 with good results. I prefer pure coco to a perlite mix for a drain to waste setup, it holds together well and the roots grow unrestricted in the coco. I could see where maybe if you were doing ebb/flow it might be beneficial. Coco has better interaction with the plant than perlite, probably thanks to that Ca/Mg exchange.


Check out my latest grow log, a site error cut most of the log out and I'm trying to get it recovered but the good part is that the water system is in the beginning.  I've been refining my watering system and have it almost down where I like it. You can get a slimed down version of whats missing if you scroll through the thread.


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Try adding a tablespoon of cooking oil to your bong water to keep it clean. The oil soluble resin stays off the glass.


“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: phychotron]
    #731010 - 05/11/14 09:55 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Awesome post, thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

I decided to switch to coco for two reasons - one because I'm tired of dealing with fungus gnats, and more importantly because I have a LOT of bricks leftover from my mushroom hobby Ive gotten bored with. I dont want all these bricks to just go to waste ( I literally have at least 50 of them) so I'm going to use them up but I guess I'll rinse them for days before I use them instead of just an hour. I'll also try CoGr, maybe that will help too.

Interesting that you start your seedlings/clones in such a high PPM, Ive been using less than 300 because of a PPM table I found somewhere and was worried even that was too high. My plants are as healthy looking as can be but are growing extremely slow. I'll try upping the PPM as well and switch to Canna's nutes.

Hopefully all these changes will at least make my bricks decent until I can use them all up and switch to Canna coco. Thanks again!


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:firecum:


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: Zombi3]
    #731012 - 05/11/14 09:57 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zombi3 said:
What kind of set up is this? Hydro? Drip irrigation?




Its just coco/perlite in pots that I treat like soil except I have to feed every time and flush more often.


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:firecum:


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InvisibleInocuole
The Wind Fish

Registered: 01/29/14
Posts: 212
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #731016 - 05/11/14 10:33 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I take it you're using the bricks too?

I have them laying around from mushroom substrates, so without any prior knowledge I thought it was a good idea to use it too.  Luckily for me the only thing I have growing in coir is catnip.


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: Inocuole]
    #731035 - 05/11/14 11:35 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
I take it you're using the bricks too?

I have them laying around from mushroom substrates, so without any prior knowledge I thought it was a good idea to use it too.  Luckily for me the only thing I have growing in coir is catnip.




Yeah, a few of these and a LOT of these.

I have read several places that although they're not ideal for growing they can be used fine with enough flushing. I assumed an hour of constant flushing with hot water would be plenty but apparently I was wrong.

Here's a couple white widows I have growing in this crap, been in it since they were clipped from their mom. They're doing great, I just transplanted out of dixie cups but they're a month old already and obviously they were growing very slow...once I finally got the water to run clear every time they started growing at a normal pace though. That's why from now on Im not going to plant anything in this stuff until it runs clear every time for several days in a row.



--------------------
:firecum:


Edited by bEelzeBosS (05/11/14 11:41 AM)


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InvisibleInocuole
The Wind Fish

Registered: 01/29/14
Posts: 212
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #731043 - 05/11/14 12:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Is the water bill and effort worth all that?  I've had sort of a bumpy start but perlite seemed pretty easy to handle comparatively.  I've heard so many good things about coir though, I guess I'll save my bricks for my substrates and get some of that nice shit for my next round of plants.  I like the passive hydro thing so far, for the most part, but coir seems a better choice for a few reasons, and I hate having to carry my big ass plant into the kitchen and water/flush it there.  Having a system that handles that would be great.

Incidentally I think the brick coir I used for that catnip plant was left over from a substrate batch and it had been pasteurized.  I wonder if that had any benefit?


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InvisibleMr. Wilson
purty-weiner-dog


Registered: 02/18/14
Posts: 206
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: Inocuole]
    #731051 - 05/11/14 02:21 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

fuck I mixed in a bit with my compost for transplants to lighten it up

used the zoomed I use for shrooms

I shoulda used perlite but all we got round here is the miracle grow bullshit

damn I hope I didn't mess up


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bit of last year's bounty


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: Inocuole]
    #731063 - 05/11/14 03:32 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Is the water bill and effort worth all that?




Not that much effort, I'll just put a bunch in a pillow case and run hot water through it a couple times a day in my shower until it runs clear. I plan on doing this for 4-5 days in a row, hopefully by the last day it will run clear immediately. Doubt I'll even notice it on my water bill either.


--------------------
:firecum:


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InvisiblephychotronM
weed pimp


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,491
Loc: Earth (mostly) Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: Mr. Wilson]
    #731064 - 05/11/14 03:33 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Brick coco works better as an additive than using it alone, it depends on how much of a coco mix you used, but if its not a shit ton then it won't be as devastating as using it as a primary medium.  The organic components tend to take care of it.

I've tried feeding the clones the Canna Start solution but @4-500ppm its not strong enough.  Canna is so gentle on the plant that its almost impossible to mess up with one full strength feeding.



I start the clones in coco as soon as they look like this (2-3 per clone collar since I don't let the roots tangle)

so they can dig right in. They grow so fast that if they don't get fed they just yellow. In the past I've used a "seed starting mix" that was fine ground brown dust that would pool water, sit overnight and still be pooled up and bone dry 1/4" down. Impossible to use alone but mixed with the coco it works great for keeping the plant sustained for that first few days. That's just in the first container though, I try and go as much coir as possible.

I also use the 1L Airpots for the absolute fastest growth and best preparation for transplant possible.

This was cut from the mother plant 27 days prior. Notice the pruned root tips at the bottom just waiting to dig into the next sized pot. You can see the leaf tips missing on the lowest branches, those were the one's that were clipped for the aerocloner, the rest of that is all fresh new growth. They're only ~$3 each for the pots but ideal for transplanting. I suggest everyone get these. The larger Airpots are comparable to the cloth, but the small one's are essential for that early development.


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Authorized Medical Marijuana patient. Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws.

Perfect Dry and Cure
View My Garden
Latest Grow Log - Grapegod under LED

Try adding a tablespoon of cooking oil to your bong water to keep it clean. The oil soluble resin stays off the glass.


“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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InvisiblephychotronM
weed pimp


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,491
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Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #731067 - 05/11/14 03:54 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Gen hydro has the brick coco basics on their website. They recommend using their cal/mg as the buffering agent, which should be mostly what the Canna has, but I don't know if it has anything else extra in it that might be beneficial. Canna recommends double Zym when reusing coco, so I'd probably toss some of that in to help break down the remaining garbage. I would try soaking for a bit longer with more water (3-4x the volume) to try and extract the salt. Do that 2-3 times, then finish with a rinse. Then inoculate with some sort of beneficial microbes and let it sit for a week or two, flipping from time to time. Then see how the runoff looks from that. If its still an issue just keep rinsing it until it comes out clear before putting the plants in.

If I remember correctly its essential to use the Ca/Mg in the rinse in order to displace the salts that are locked onto the coco. Ca/Mg are big fat molecules that bounce the smaller salts away, then interacts with the coco/nutrients in order to provide nutrients to the plants more effectively.


--------------------
Authorized Medical Marijuana patient. Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws.

Perfect Dry and Cure
View My Garden
Latest Grow Log - Grapegod under LED

Try adding a tablespoon of cooking oil to your bong water to keep it clean. The oil soluble resin stays off the glass.


“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: phychotron]
    #731077 - 05/11/14 05:40 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Good idea thanks. Can't wait to get rid of this crap so I can switch to some good stuff. May put some bricks on Craigslist and see what happens.


--------------------
:firecum:


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #731079 - 05/11/14 06:05 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Any ideas on a good way to introduce some microbes to the medium? Are there products made especially for that?

A friend said to use "horticulture molasses", would that work?


--------------------
:firecum:


Edited by bEelzeBosS (05/11/14 06:33 PM)


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InvisiblephychotronM
weed pimp


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,491
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Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS] * 1
    #731113 - 05/11/14 09:58 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

They make a few different products, Advanced nutrients makes three: tarantula, pirhanna and voodoo. Then there are a Humboldt's Myco Maddness and one called Great White Mycorrhizae, which is the one I was going to try. I've tried all the Advanced one's but not for treating coco. I think they're all overpriced from them.


--------------------
Authorized Medical Marijuana patient. Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws.

Perfect Dry and Cure
View My Garden
Latest Grow Log - Grapegod under LED

Try adding a tablespoon of cooking oil to your bong water to keep it clean. The oil soluble resin stays off the glass.


“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineMidgetpawn
Squatchin' for god
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Registered: 06/21/13
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Re: Question about coco coir [Re: phychotron]
    #731151 - 05/12/14 08:01 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I got some bagged(non brick)coir from some shroomery sponsor Out-grow.com and it appears slightly reddish, which I think coir just is, but doesn't have any runoff I can see besides some coir seeping out. It actually seems like some of the highest quality coir you could get. Certainly better than some of the bricked coir I've used. I think it worked out to 2.50-3.00 a bricks worth for the bagged stuff. hope it's ok mentioning shroomery sponsors on here =x


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Be sure to read up on "autoflower"/ruderalis seeds before choosing them. Unless you NEED autos, you might do much better with anything else. No more hoarding ultra genetics! We need more of the best not less!


Edited by Midgetpawn (05/12/14 08:10 AM)


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: phychotron]
    #731152 - 05/12/14 08:10 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I just ordered an 8 oz container of the Great White. Thanks again for the advice.


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:firecum:


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InvisiblebEelzeBosS
Are my eyes red?


Registered: 11/15/13
Posts: 679
Re: Question about coco coir [Re: phychotron]
    #732667 - 05/22/14 05:51 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

phy - I picked up some Canna A & B, have a question for you...

I use RO H2o, and Ive been adding Cal/Mag to every feeding. I noticed Canna A contains quite a bit of Ca and Canna B contains Mg. Should I stop using the Cal/Mag altogether now or just use less?


--------------------
:firecum:


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 13,294
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Re: Question about coco coir [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #732675 - 05/22/14 07:26 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I'd stop using it all together.


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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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Amazon Shop for: Coir, Perlite

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