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OfflineFraggy
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Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling?
    #570835 - 07/08/11 11:59 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Hi all,

I'm not exactly a noob anymore but I'm having a doubt, especially since I haven't got any previous experience with AK47.

A problem child?


A healthy sibling:


I know it's normal that a plant's lower older leaves turn yellow, then brown and finally fall off as it's containing nutrients get moved to the younger and still growing leaves at the top of the plant, but as you can see on the first picture, the seedling is still very small, yet it already shows dark stains on the two lowest leaves and the cotyledons (which turned yellow first).

On the second picture, you can see a seedling that germinated on the same day, yet it is quite bigger and doesn't show much staining on its lower leaves (although it is starting already to show small spots of discoloration on the lowest leaves)!!!

They are growing extremely fast... They germinated in only one day, and what you see on the pics is the result of two weeks of 24/0 light (light permanently on) so that would be about the same as about a month with a 16/8 cycle, no???? They are kept in plastic 1,5L Coke bottles (so the roots could grow deep) of a soil mix that I've used quite successfully before and the bottles have holes in the bottom. Could it be that these containers are already depleted of nutrients???

Both were treated in the exact same way (same soil, water, etc...)

What should I do? Transplant them already in bigger pots or give fertilizer?

I'd like to hear some comments :smile:


Edited by Fraggy (07/09/11 12:05 AM)


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570842 - 07/09/11 01:33 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

You need to have something to keept light from getting to the roots, a trashbag or paint the outside of the containers. Ummm, how close is the light to them? And what kind of light? How hot is the temp in the area? My guess is it will recover from whatever caused the damage to those first set of leaves.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: mhbound]
    #570909 - 07/09/11 11:06 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

it is not normal for any strain to look like that during such an early age. its being caused by stress. looks like heat stress and a lot of it. on a 24/h cycle you need to be even more careful as far as light distancing just because they don't get a time to rest and recover.

and as MHbound said you really need to get those roots shielded from the light. the whole reason why you germinate in the dark is to promote the tap root to grow. roots need 100% darkness to grow.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Pernicious]
    #570920 - 07/09/11 04:27 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Couldn't possibly be heat stress, they are sitting under low energy consumption lightbulbs, at 5 cm from the bulb the temperature is 22 degrees Celcius max (room temperature is 19 degrees Celcius).
The same as I did with the seedling you can see in my avatar. The leaves only burned if they actually touched the lamp... If it would be heat stress, wouldn't the youngest leaves (upper leaves) be affected most?

In previous growing experiences the transparent container never was any problem: at the most they turn green and the plant expands its roots on the inside, where the light can't reach, but I'll shield the roots from light just in case.

I suspect nutes because AK47 seems to have a reputation with that, According to what I read yesterday, but I'm still puzzled because they discolour so young... Should Il spray the leaves with fertilizer, and what concentration should I use so it won't burn the leaves: 1/2 of indicated concentration? And how many times would I spray them? Once a day, twice?


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? *DELETED* [Re: Fraggy]
    #570926 - 07/09/11 05:13 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflinePernicious
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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #570928 - 07/09/11 05:25 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah Ak is pretty finicky sometimes. its definitely not heat stress if they are just under CFL. and hopefully you aren't foliar feeding already? i mean that could be it right there.

have you checked the PH of your water/soil?

i mean they wont really be too effected by their condition right now just as long as you fix w.e it is before it turns into a long term condition.

iunno i say check your PH levels and cover the roots and only feed water for the next week or two. if it doesn't clear up by then its a problem with your feeding schedule IE too much or too little (most likely too much at this stage in growth)

i just finished pulling my girls out of some major trauma they got when i left a friend to babysit when i went away. They where much worse then yours and have made a 100% recovery in the 2 weeks since ive been back and have more then doubled in size. so try not to stress too much dude they are weeds after all :tongue:


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Pernicious]
    #570938 - 07/09/11 05:44 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not feeding them yet. The soil mix is the only food they've had so far and I've just bought fertilizers "just in case". I'm only giving them water (faucet water, left to "breathe" at least 8h to loose the chlorine, before I give it to them).
I'm not sure about the pH... The soil mix is supposed to have a pH of 6,4 or a bit lower, but I haven't actually checked it. I have tested the water before and it gave me a pH of 6,5 if I remember well (straight out of the faucet).

I'm gonna check the pH of water and ground right now.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570941 - 07/09/11 06:03 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Now I remember the faucet water (tapwater) here has very little o no calcium in it... The spots on the leaves (of my other seedlings, that also started to show symptoms) look quite similar to this picture I found online: Picture of Calcium Shortage.
So perhaps that's a possible candidate culprit?

I'll check my pH now and I'll let ya know asap.


Edited by Fraggy (07/09/11 06:51 PM)


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570942 - 07/09/11 06:42 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Tapwater reads a pH between 7 and 7,5 (more towards 7,5). That's a bit on the high side...

I watered the "problem child", now I'm waiting a few minutes for the water to homogenize in its container. I temporarily closed the bottom holes. After a few minutes I'll open them again to let the water drain and I'll check the pH of that water.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570945 - 07/09/11 06:54 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

it doesn't look like a calcium deficiency to me.

what's your soil mix made up of? your ph levels all sound fine to me other then your water. but tap water is never right on the spot either for example the water i have is a ph of 4.3 (which is retarded)

as i said before just wrap up the cups and give it a week. if they dont start making a recovery i dont know what to say.

someone else on here is sure to have more experience then i do as far as health problems are concerned. i have never really run into much personally other then nutrient/heat related problems in the past.

personally i still think they just look stressed out. have you tried giving them some b1?


Edited by Pernicious (07/09/11 06:59 PM)


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570946 - 07/09/11 07:23 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

The pH of the water from the container reads between 6,5 and 7,5.
It's a bit difficult to read because it is a color test and the water was brownish (testing strips would be a lot better, I'll get them on monday).


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570947 - 07/09/11 07:27 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Soil mix is:
5 parts potting ground : 2 parts perlite : 1 part sand : 1 part worm castings.

What is b1?


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570948 - 07/09/11 07:34 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

These are 2 of the other seedlings. Sorry for the bad quality of the pics... They're taken with my iPod and the iPod sucks at that.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #570950 - 07/09/11 08:47 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

B1 is a vitamin. you can get an organic liquid solution at most garden/hydro shops for like 12-20 bucks. its amazing for bringing plants out of stress and its great for the roots.

man they just look really stressed to me. and why sand? there are so many better additives to aerate the soil then that. plus what do you mean by potting ground? cause your mix looks really woody?

from the looks if it i cant believe you have had success with it before and would recommend just getting a cheap bag of black earth from walmart and mixing that with worm castings and perlite. it will work much better.

just go to your garden shop and get some liquid b1 and follow the instructions on the bottle. Dont over do it or it will fry you roots.

it really works miracles for stressed out plants man.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Pernicious]
    #570951 - 07/09/11 08:49 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

and get those roots protected lol. its not like pots arent cheap at walmart (like 46 cents tops).


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Pernicious]
    #571010 - 07/10/11 03:23 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Its like a hydro-soil mix.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Pernicious]
    #571018 - 07/10/11 05:05 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

With Potting Ground I meant Black Earth :smile: and here where I live it's very fertile.
As I understand, the sand is not for aeration (the perlite is). The sands' sharpness would be to stimulate root development. I got the soil mix from an old and practical video tutorial.
So what would you suggest I use instead of sand? I got vermiculite too, it tends to compact the soil in time but it is said to absorb the nutes and lets the roots take the nutes when they need them, which would be an advantage...

I know vit. B1 but I didn't recognize it in this context, never knew it could be used for plants. I'm quite sure I won't be able to buy this here, the country where I live is a bit retarded and planting pots will cost me about 1,5 us dollar per unit at least. B1 I can get but probably only in a Pharmacy so I'd need to know what concentration to use...

I do have a bottle of antistress/antishock solution, should I give'm some of that?

Too bad I don't have pics at hand of my previous experience, because the plants were spectacular and the buds even more so. Never had any trouble with any plant at all... The only thing that changed in my "setup" is the water, since I moved and now live in another department. The water, and the strains... My first experiment was with seeds of unknown origin, that came with the bricks of compressed weed I used to smoke. Well, the pic in my avatar is a testimony, as you can see it's a seedling bursting with health...


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #571051 - 07/10/11 01:43 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

well this is what i use. the 500ml bottle costs like 13 bucks at the local garden shops and its 100% organic. the shit lasts like a year or two depending on how big your set up gets.



and dont sweat the pics lol everyone runs into issues. every strain is different and AK can be fairly picky indoors. (grows into a monster outdoors)

and as far as what i use for a mix its generally use a mix of black earth, peat moss, vermiculite,oystershells and some kind of manure or castings for extra nutes.

though i just found a wicked brand of organic potting soil which i switched my girls over too (due to cost) and i mix that  like 50% potting soil, 20% worm castings, 20% vermiculite and 10% oyster shells.

i use oyster shells because they are great for aerating the soil and i like to think they add some calcium to the soil (though this may be a delusion of mine :tongue:)


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Pernicious]
    #571100 - 07/10/11 06:09 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I'm afraid the Vit. B1 is gonna be a problem here, but the oyster shell thing should be easy because in this country we got a pet shop at every corner of the street.

Pernicious, if you're using something like this: Birdy food supplement then yeah, you're sure to add enough calcium to your soil and that's what I'm gonna do too. If I can get the ingredients on monday, then I'll use your soil mix instead :smile:. Do you have good results with it? It's no time to experiment for me :frown:, also do you know what pH that soil mix of yours has got?

I do highly suspect the water being the culprit, still thinking in the direction of Calcium shortage. The stains of calcium shortage are said to appear quite rapidly, in older leaves and they say have a typical darker brown border... As is the case in my situation. I got a good camera now (same one as I used for my avatar) and will post the pics as soon as I finish shooting them... So then viewers will be able to say wether or not this is a Calcium problem.

Pics aside, I'm not gonna wait for the problem to get worse... I'm gonna buy bigger pots and transplant them in your soil mix and treat them with an antishock solution.

Note on the transparency of the containers: I am going to listen to you guys, and make sure not to expose my most precious babies' roots to light anymore, but I have to insist on (and I will repeat the experiment with a cheaper strain) that I never had problems with that in the past, even the other way around: the transparency allowed me to see how quickly the roots were growing, and the whole lower bottom part of the bottle was full of holes, for a better air exchange and my babies loved it! Same thing with cloning, I always cloned in water with an aquarium stone bubbling oxigen in the water (without worrying about light) and they absolutely loved it, rooting in 10 days.

I will experiment in the future and publish my results, but right now, priority is to save my babies! Make them produce seeds, keep some mother plants, and then, later, we'll have some fun experimenting with the ladies!


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #571165 - 07/10/11 09:34 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Now I've got some decent pics, I hope anybody recognizes the symptoms!

Help, is there a (plant) doctor in the house?

AK-47 Seedling nr. 1:


AK-47 Seedling nr. 2:


AK-47 Seedling nr. 3:


Bubblegum Seedling nr. 1:


Bubblegum Seedling nr. 2:


Bubblegum Seedling nr. 3:


Bubblegum Seedling nr. 4:


All Bubblegums together:


I should have numbered the seedlings chronologically, but since it's only for a reference when we talk about them, it doesn't matter much (the numbers are actually in antichronological order - hatching time).

Notice the color difference between the Bubblegums:
Bubblegum seedling 1 and 2 are lighter in color (yellowish) than Bubblegum seedling 3 and 4 (darker green)!!!! This *could* be coincidence, but perhaps it's relevant, because BG 3 and 4 are the only seedlings (of all AK-47 and BG) that received a different earth in their soil mix!!!!
The recipe is the same for all, but I used Black Earth from different providers!!!
I had an old bag of Black Earth that was 2 years old... Since it was so old, I thought it might have lost quality so I took note of it.
So BG 3 and 4 (the healthy ones) are the only seedlings that used the old earth, all other seedlings are using newly bought earth.
The BG seedlings are growing way slower than the AK47 so perhaps it is way too soon to tell. Also the color difference between BG 1 + 2 and BG 3 + 4 is very small and therefore I guess I'll have to wait a while before I could draw a real conclusion...

I'll keep my eye on the BG's, curious to see if only BG 1 and 2 will develop serious yellowness and brown spots on their lower leaves. if this would be the case, and BG 3 and 4 stay a healthy darker green without spots, then the newer Black Earth (Potting Ground) is to "blame".

For now, I'll transplant the AK-47 seedlings, I'll buy new Black Earth from another provider...

So if anybody recognizes the spots on the new pics, I'd be happy to hear the diagnosis, because I'm very worried for my babies!


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #571180 - 07/10/11 10:22 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

What is the pH of your water and soil again?

What nutrients? Any nutrients in the soil?

How often are you watering? It could be overwatering coupled with a pH problem, but I'm not sure.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: mhbound]
    #571201 - 07/10/11 11:05 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

i actually get the large chunk oyster shells from my local farmers co-op. they sell it to mix with chicken feed.

as far as the soil mix i have had great success with it and the ph tends to be fairly neutral like around 7-7.5 but i always take it down with some aluminum sulfate or elemental sulfur depending on what i have available (worst case scenario if im really broke i just use white vinegar and water :frown: seems to work though.)

i always keep my soil around a ph of 6. right now its at 6.1-6.3

i dunno man get them transplanted and they should make a full recovery. they tend to do well when left to their own devices.


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: mhbound]
    #571234 - 07/11/11 03:46 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mhbound said:
What is the pH of your water and soil again?

What nutrients? Any nutrients in the soil?

How often are you watering? It could be overwatering coupled with a pH problem, but I'm not sure.



No nutes at all, except for those already present in Black Earth and Worm Castings...

pH is somewhere between 6,5 and 7,5...

Watering: second time in two weeks... The nice thing about transparent plastic bottles is that you can see how the upper part dries out while the lower part stays wet and the roots reaching deeper and deeper to get to the water. In my previous experience it was a pleasure to see the plant matting the container with its expanding roots. I did water before the bottom was completely dry but even then overwatering is pretty unprobable because the soil drains really well... I always give water until 10% of it comes out of the bottom holes, this to make sure part of the plants' metabolites get washed away with this 10%...

Please take a good look at the root pics, click to zoom, the pics are pretty detailed, and tell me how the roots look to you.

I know MJ prefers it acid... Even though 7,5 should be tolerated, perhaps it's too high for these babes?


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #574803 - 07/26/11 11:35 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I took no further risks and transplanted them. They are now fully recovered and growing like crazy!

It was definatly Calcium deficit and the brand of black earth was the problem: roots had serious troubles to develop! Don't know if it was a pH problem or wathever, but the problem is solved, won't be using the same brand of black earth again, even if it was only one bad batch.

Against your advice, I still keep them in transparent containers, so I kan keep track of root development and this time, the roots are growing explosively, they reached the bottom of the bottle in less then a week and already the matting process is taking place.
I know that having light shine on the roots is never optimal, because it could trigger the formation of chlorophyle and have the root loose its functionality, but this would never be an actual problem, since the plant is smart enough to shoot roots inwards, where there is no light. As a matter of fact this happens a lot with trees and bushes in nature...

But the roots of my plants do not even turn green, instead they keep branching into finer and finer white and hairy filaments. Another big advantage of a transparent container is that I have a quick visual reference on water housing status: condense drops will show that the soil at the bottom is still moist while the upper soil may be dry.

Perhaps the transparency does have some serious drawbacks, I don't really know because I never have had any negative experience with this method... I suppose the light may favour the growth of unwanted algae or fungus... In any case, if desired, the light can be excluded at will with an outer layer of paper, plastic or cloth... In my opinion, a transparent container is useful especially for cloning, so you can see humidity level and if the cutting is rooting properly. (Although I fully switched all my cloning activities to hydro :smile:).


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: Fraggy]
    #574939 - 07/27/11 07:39 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

i'm gonna say the ph of your tap water is probably the culprit. either get some distilled water or spring for a RO filter. you can pick-up a soil ph test meter at most hardware stores or garden shops for like 15 bucks. an overall plant tonic containing b1, hormones and other vitamins will relieve your plants of stress. look for superthrive it's the best i've ever used. works well for general well-being, transplanting, and reviving plants that have experienced less than optimal care. by the way where are you from? hope any of this might help, and good luck:thumbup:


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Re: Is this normal for such a young AK47 seedling? [Re: brainsOplenty]
    #575137 - 07/28/11 07:23 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I am from Argentina, therefore the pH strips and other tools (stuff like "superthrive") may be hard or impossible to get by. There are some "underground" growshops here though that may sell imported stuff (at exhorbitant prices though...)

For now the plants are fine, but were watered once with an antishock solution when transplanting and since then I've only watered once with tapwater. They are looking super healthy right now but if the water is a problem that could possibly change in the future.

Note that two of my seedlings never had any problem at all, and those two were the two only seedlings that were using black earth from my previous (and successful) experience... So despite of receiving the same tapwater as the rest, they remained healthy. This could be coincidence though I don't think so... But even then, the pH is on the high side, I'm craving for rain water. Since I live in a department without balcony it is a bit difficult to recollect rainwater, but I'm thinking of making some kind of rain collector that I can hang out of my windows or something...
Rainwater is slightly acid and is really the best thing for MJ. In my previous growing experience I was living in another department were I had access to plenty of rainwater and the plants just loved it!


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