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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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? for Magash, others.
    #419963 - 05/18/10 05:14 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Do you have any experience breeding with a male-dominant hermie or heard of anyone doing this? I have two Sleestack x Skunk males, one is 100% male while the other is more like 75% male / 25% female. From what I understand this is rare. DJ Short seems to recommend keeping these around (see below) but I was wondering what you think? I've already collected pollen from both but have yet to pollinate so I'm still trying to decide.

"A quick word on backward hermaphrodites- declared males that eventually sport female flowers- as opposed to the usual female to male hermaphrodites. Theses are semi-rare occurances, usually sterile but sometimes viable, that I have found at times to be valuable in there genetic contributions. Some of the most resinous and desirable males I have encountered exhibited this trait. This trait almost seems to guarantee against unwanted hermaphroditism in subsequent generations as it also increases the female to male ratio in its progeny" -DJ Short

Did a lot of searching and could only find people hypothesizing about this. Interested to hear what you guys think about this. My first reaction was "that must be wrong, any hermies lead to more hermies" but curiosity is getting the best of me. If it is true that male-dom hermies could inhibit hermaphroditic traits in female progency that is fucking amazing.

EDIT: Pic added for reference. This was a clone @ 17 days of 12/12. Notice it expresses only male flowers around the main stem but hermie when there is any branching involved.




Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/18/10 05:31 PM)


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #420268 - 05/19/10 09:28 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Found a couple more posts about this on the net but not much. The argument they're making is that since these males are producing ethylene (and less GA) their female progency are getting a double dose of it and thus are less prone to hermie than 100% female x 100% male. If true it could explain why Shorts' gear never throws nanners.

At this point I think I might try it in the name of science.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1113391&postcount=20
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1108314&postcount=16


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Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/19/10 09:52 AM)


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InvisibleFurrowedBrowM
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #420592 - 05/19/10 07:43 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

My reaction is the same as yours.  I wouldn't even fuck with this.  Sounds like it could potentially waste a LOT of time.  But im no DJ shorts or magash.  hopefully he comes around to set it straight.  I would think he would just laugh at the suggestion though.  Also, why posting this here rather than where the public can see it?  I remember you said you were lurking so i wont move it, just curious since this discussion could potentially help others.


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: FurrowedBrow]
    #421077 - 05/20/10 04:42 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I just didn't think many people would know or care but you can move it if you think it will benefit anyone.

I've decided to pollinate two known "hermie-free" female clones with the male hermie. The rest of the females, including additional copies of those same clones, will be pollinated by the regular "hermie-free" male. Shouldn't have to grow many F1's to figure out whether or not they are really feminized. If they really are 90-100% fem seeds (from GA-possessing pollen) than I'm way more likely to believe the second part about them also being more likely to suppress intersex traits during flowering. That will take much, much longer to prove or disprove though.


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Skunk Train (Most Recent) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed)
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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #421181 - 05/20/10 08:35 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, I've done a little research into this and so far this is what I've found out doing tests. First off nobody has pulled off trying to do all male seeds yet, for some reason all male pollen just won't take.

Now a male-dominant or female-dominant plant would be a nightmare to breed with. Yes like DJ says they have some traits that somebody might like but there will be plenty of normal plants with the same traits out there cause the hermies are going to have far more cons going for them then pros.

Quote:

My first reaction was "that must be wrong, any hermies lead to more hermies" but curiosity is getting the best of me.




Your first reaction is right. :wink:


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InvisibleFurrowedBrowM
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Re: ? for Magash, others. (moved) [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #421184 - 05/20/10 08:41 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

This thread was moved from The Green Room.

Reason:
Now people may benefit a bit more from this information. 


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Invisiblewishcouldeletethis
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Re: ? for Magash, others. *DELETED* [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #421436 - 05/21/10 12:59 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by lampshadehelmet

Reason for deletion: k



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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #421543 - 05/21/10 10:24 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks guys. :thumbup:

Quote:

lampshadehelmet said:
At one time I had two male turned female hermies and used pollen from both to seed a handful of different strains.




How similar would you say they looked to the picture I posted above? More male dominant or less?

Quote:

lampshadehelmet said:The resulting children roughly 500 or so grown out, yielded zero hermaphrodites. As well, per 50 planted it is pretty consistent that I would get only 5-10 males.




Interesting. Did you let any of the F1 males flower and were they hermie if you did? Like Magash said I think the intersex/hermie traits are being passed to all of the progency regardless, but for some reason (likely ethylene) the females are able to suppress it while the males shouldn't be able to for the same reason.

Did you use any of the F1 females (or their clones) in future crosses by chance?


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Skunk Train (Most Recent) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed)
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"The secret of improved plant breeding, apart from scientific knowledge, is love." -Luther Burbank


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #421611 - 05/21/10 01:40 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Can't stop thinking about this...

Taken from "Hemp Husbandry" by Robert Nelson:

Quote:

Treatment of hempseed with ethylene gas will increase the resulting number of female plants by about 50%. Ethylene is produced by certain plants (i.e., bananas, cucumbers and melons), and these can be used to treat hempseed in a simple manner. About two weeks before you plan to sprout the seeds, place them in a paper bag or envelope and put that in a plastic bag with the peels of a ripening banana or cucumber. Replace the peels after a couple of days, and change the bags to prevent mold.




The "reverse hermie" just accomplishes this naturally and as the seeds form. Presumably the fem % is even higher from male hermie -> female progency (90~%). A potential drawback is that intersex genes are also introduced into said progency. I say potential because those intersex genes seem to be entirely masked/suppressed in F1 female progency. Now where it gets vague is...do those intersex genes rear their head again in the F2 and beyond? Also, what happens to the male progency of male hermie -> female crosses?

Taken from an STS breeding guide, I think GoldenSeed but I'm not sure:

Quote:

"Ethylene: One of the 5 plant hormones. The levels and ratios of these 5 hormones has a huge impact on the shape, strucutre, aroma, flavor, flowering time, and disease resistance of the plant. Hormones are the chemical messengers that allow DNA to 'talk' to plant tissues and determine the phenotype. Ethylene is primarily involved in flowering, sex determination, fruit ripening, and sensescence (rot). Ethylene is a simple organic molecule, C2 H4, which can also be represented as H2C=CH2."




Consider that DJ Short is a master when it comes to all 5 categories listed above. His females are known for how rarely they throw nanners. He seems to be one of the first and few people to do this and/or advocate it. Just saying?

My curiosity is going to get the best of me here. I must know :crazy2:


--------------------
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Skunk Train (Most Recent) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed)
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Re: ? for Magash, others. *DELETED* [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #421708 - 05/21/10 05:02 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by lampshadehelmet

Reason for deletion: k



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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #421727 - 05/21/10 06:17 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lampshadehelmet said:
I was very unimpressed using serious seeds chronic to cross with so I have since dumped all the genetics.




I'm confused. You say you grew out 500 of them in batches of 50, yet you were very unimpressed? You will have to explain that one to me.

Quote:

lampshadehelmet said:
The overall budding style is different than of the ones you posted, more what I refer to as bolting in style. Dunno if its the proper term, regardless different. Male looking, no.




If it was not male looking, what lead you to believe it was a male hermie as opposed to the far more popular (and viable) female hermie? I've had females express 30-40% male flowers in the past but it was always very obvious it was a female plant with skewed intersex genes.

Quote:

lampshadehelmet said:
No males were grown out either.




You said you were getting 5-10 males per 50 grown so those were all culled is what you're saying?


--------------------
|

Skunk Train (Most Recent) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed)
Cinnibis Rolls | Indoor Peppers

"The secret of improved plant breeding, apart from scientific knowledge, is love." -Luther Burbank


Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/21/10 06:20 PM)


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Invisiblecoda


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Re: ? for Magash, others. [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #422005 - 05/22/10 12:29 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Treatment of hempseed with ethylene gas will increase the resulting number of female plants by about 50%. Ethylene is produced by certain plants (i.e., bananas, cucumbers and melons), and these can be used to treat hempseed in a simple manner. About two weeks before you plan to sprout the seeds, place them in a paper bag or envelope and put that in a plastic bag with the peels of a ripening banana or cucumber. Replace the peels after a couple of days, and change the bags to prevent mold.





haha the banana religion in another form!  Been a while since I've seen mention of using bananas with your grow.  I remember seeing people placing whole bananas at the stalks of their unsexed plants in hopes of more females.


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