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OfflineUnion420
Horticulturist

Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 94
Loc: New World
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Breeding Prodject questions.
    #386409 - 03/18/10 11:40 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Ok lemme get everything straight before I get into what I imagine will be a 2 year (at least) project. I have 5 strains in seedling stage, SLH, Diesel, Strawberry C, Blueberry and LA Con. Ok, they are all fems and I want to make seeds of all of them for storage and later use. I clone so its not an issue of having more plants, I first was going to force them to herm thus pollinating themselves but this is not an option. So, what I want to do is bring a single male to pollinate all five. My goal is to save the strains I have to as close to the original as possible. I figure to do this, I would have to pollinate the 5 using the said male, then, grow out the resulting seed from each seperate and pick the males showing the closest traits to the said strain or most desireable traits and then backcross them to the original mother, then do it all again continuously backcrossing the males to the original mother. Now what im trying to accomplish is getting seed stock that when grown out will result in a plant that is almost idenical to the original bought seed. So, am I correct? I understand by doing this im not going to get the original as there will always be the genetics of the male, but I figure by doing this it will progressively drown out the males traits and give me seed that will grow out mostly like the recurrent parent, in this case the 5 original strains (all done seperate obviously) So any input, questions advice? Thanks.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: Breeding Prodject questions. [Re: Union420]
    #386415 - 03/19/10 12:11 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

You could try this,

Quote:

Magash said:
ok, here's how I do it.

First pick the mother plants that you want to target for gathering pollen. Take clones from them to be tested. Now stress test them (this is the biggest fuck up in Soma's method) with light, water, nutrients, many other ways and keep track of what your doing. Now the plants that show hermie traits or the bananas that Soma talks about are discarded. In other words the plants that Soma keeps the pollen are age stressed plants. These are the exact plants I myself would discard for the porpoise he keeps them for. Doing this is not a natural thing for the plants to do and can not be done properly organically.

Now that the strong mothers have been found clones are taken from them and treated with STS treatments.

STS treatments. I got this from Rez

Preparation of STS:

First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: .5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss.

The adjusted formula is as follows:

Part A: .7 gram silver nitrate stirred into 40ml distilled water
Part B: 2.6 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 160 ml distilled water

Next, slowly add the silver nitrate solution to the sodium thiosulfate solution while stirring. This combination is then added to 800 ml of distilled water to equal 1 liter. This is your final stock solution. It is diluted 1:9 with more distilled water to make your final working solution, which then gets sprayed on your target plant.

Either formula will work great, so don't sweat it too much. But do that second spraying at the end of week 2... seems to be the key for getting pollen from the more difficult strains.


Application:

The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:

Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidentally. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very careful: pollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

About the chemicals:

Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.




or read over this,

http://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/315101#315101

Both could be helpful.


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting


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Posts: 786
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Breeding Prodject questions. [Re: Union420]
    #386551 - 03/19/10 10:10 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Union420 said:
Ok lemme get everything straight before I get into what I imagine will be a 2 year (at least) project. I have 5 strains in seedling stage, SLH, Diesel, Strawberry C, Blueberry and LA Con. Ok, they are all fems and I want to make seeds of all of them for storage and later use. I clone so its not an issue of having more plants, I first was going to force them to herm thus pollinating themselves but this is not an option. So, what I want to do is bring a single male to pollinate all five. My goal is to save the strains I have to as close to the original as possible. I figure to do this, I would have to pollinate the 5 using the said male, then, grow out the resulting seed from each seperate and pick the males showing the closest traits to the said strain or most desireable traits and then backcross them to the original mother, then do it all again continuously backcrossing the males to the original mother. Now what im trying to accomplish is getting seed stock that when grown out will result in a plant that is almost idenical to the original bought seed. So, am I correct? I understand by doing this im not going to get the original as there will always be the genetics of the male, but I figure by doing this it will progressively drown out the males traits and give me seed that will grow out mostly like the recurrent parent, in this case the 5 original strains (all done seperate obviously) So any input, questions advice? Thanks.




Selfing them is going to be much easier and faster for you, but I know where you're coming from. What you describe is a fantastic breeding program.

My only advice is to grow out as many males as possible and select a true king for your queens. Also, try to take the males all the way to maturity to really see and smell their flowering potential. Like you said it will be years of back-crossing the progency before the male traits are drowned out.

When you're finally done and they reproduce true to the moms, don't expect people to consider what you have blueberry or la conf or whatever though. It doesn't matter that it might be 99.x% true or more stable than the original, people will get their panties in a fit since you're not growing the "real" clones. Just something to think about when trying to re-create a strain so exactly via seed.

Good luck man.

Magash is the breeding expert here.


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Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (03/19/10 10:15 AM)


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OfflineUnion420
Horticulturist

Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 94
Loc: New World
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: Breeding Prodject questions. [Re: Union420]
    #386883 - 03/19/10 04:17 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks guys, Stoney, I originally wanted to go the route you advised but the thing is I cant find a place to get the STS ingredients. I wanted a place that carried everything at a reasonable price and was easy to pick out. Most places I looked I couldnt find what I was looking for or what I did find was more of a commercial quantity and I dont want or need that much. Now if I could find a place real simple that had exactly what I needed I would much rather do that cause like you said its alot easier.

206, I realize ill never have the original by doing this and thats a bummer. If I do go this way I would never claim it to be what its not, id probly re name it cause I kno if theres one thing that really bothers me its people claiming they have Blueberry or Silver haze or whatever when its either just some dank, or it may be a recognized strain but not what the person is claiming it to be, Ive noticed a big difference between growers and just smokers as the smokers kno very little about cannabis. Ive spoken to people who have no idea what a strain is or the differece between them, shit, Ive met people who think the plants only make buds by planting a male with a female and the roots themselves (have sex) thus resulting in buds LOL, O and think sinsemilla is a special plant of its own that dosent produce seed LOL. Anyway, point is most people wouldnt kno the difference but I kno what your saying and I like most growers have a special respect for the scene, and to me claiming something for what its not is a terrible plague that haunts the grow community as it makes names pointless, false advertising, if I want a pit bull thats what I want not a pit lab mix lol.
Thanks guys for the input much appreciated.


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Everything is fictional, I dont even exist.


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