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Invisiblecaptain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,163
Trusted Cultivator
Phosphorus myth?
    #409866 - 05/01/10 05:42 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)



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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409871 - 05/01/10 06:31 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Phosphorus is pretty much the limiting factor in plant growth.

It is very insoluble and gets locked up in the soil becoming immobile.

By that I mean it bonds very quickly with other chemicals making it unusable by the plants.

The greater the total amounts present in the soil, the better the chance of having more phosphorus in solution.

Studies also show that excessive phosphorus increases yield.

Excess phosphorus basically lets the plant run at its full potential. It doesn't "eat" more and get fat like a human eating more carbs or whatever his stupid analogy was.

This guy doesn't know what he is talking about...


Edited by DoPeYsMuRf (05/01/10 06:43 AM)


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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
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Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409872 - 05/01/10 06:43 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I haven't actually read the PDF, however the video is pretty shocking. My level of understanding my not be as high as yours but I have some input.

He does make a good point when he says that most hydroponic nutrient companies mix nutes geared towards general indoor plant cultivation. I sort of believe this but at the same time I don't. Let's be honest, all these hydroponic firms know what a majority of their sales are going towards: cannabis cultivation. Therefore, it might be a little unreasonable to assume that these nutrient companies are all following a 40 year old book intended for general indoor cultivation.

In addition to this, how does one explain magash's yields with his feeding program.
In addition to the floranova nutes, he uses powdered koolbloom and liquid:
http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/product_labels/koolbloom_1.5lb.pdf
http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/product_labels/liquid_koolbloom_qt.pdf

The powdered kool bloom is 2-45-28. The liquid is 0-10-10. Big Mike would say: "That's too much phosphorus." Yet what I see is insanely healthy and high yielding plants. :shrug:


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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409873 - 05/01/10 06:47 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Of course I just noticed this is the Hydro forum so I left out that in water excess phosphorus cause wild algae outbreaks using all the O2 suffocating roots.
oopsie :blush:


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409874 - 05/01/10 06:51 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Once again I'd like to add that this wont happen if no light hits the water...


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,163
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Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409875 - 05/01/10 06:57 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
He said they did tests on tissue samples but P is primarily used in root production. I wonder where they took the samples from...

How do you say P is mainly used in root production?  "Mainly used" is fairly vague, and root production is very fucking vague.  First off it's vital to everything in a plant because P is needed in photosynthesis to create ATP or you could say photosynthesis is essential to metabolic functions of plants. So I mean would that go to say that a plant has functions more important than photosynthesis?

P is pretty much the limiting factor in plant growth.

"pretty much" ?? Are you saying P is a limiting factor or not? Why is that? Are you saying a lack of P is the first thing to limit plant growth?


P is very insoluble and gets locked up in the soil becoming immobile.

Studies show that excessive P increases yield.

If it's increasing yields how could it be excessive? Wouldn't excessive be when P no longer increases yields?

Excess P basically lets the plant run at its full potential. It doesn't "eat" more and get fat like a human eating more carbs or whatever his stupid analogy was.

This guy doesn't know what he is talking about...




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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409877 - 05/01/10 07:01 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I edited my first post like 50 times before I got it right. You got the quote off on my first draft =(


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409878 - 05/01/10 07:08 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

captain.koons said:

Are you saying a lack of P is the first thing to limit plant growth?






Nitrogen is the true limiting factor. But after that it's the phosphorus. [edit] In an ecological sense because nitrogen is very plentiful but phosphorous is not - google phosphorus cycle to see what I mean.

Quote:

captain.koons said:

If it's increasing yields how could it be excessive? Wouldn't excessive be when P no longer increases yields?





I think i got this covered in my edit above.

It forms a completely different compound. When the phosphorus available is used up the other compounds break down make more accessible to the plant(could take a long time, which is why excess is used).

I hope I'm making sense. I know what I'm trying to say but not sure if its that understandable.



Edited by DoPeYsMuRf (05/01/10 07:20 AM)


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,163
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: TomCollins]
    #409879 - 05/01/10 07:19 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Spency said:
I haven't actually read the PDF, however the video is pretty shocking. My level of understanding my not be as high as yours but I have some input.

He does make a good point when he says that most hydroponic nutrient companies mix nutes geared towards general indoor plant cultivation. I sort of believe this but at the same time I don't. Let's be honest, all these hydroponic firms know what a majority of their sales are going towards: cannabis cultivation. Therefore, it might be a little unreasonable to assume that these nutrient companies are all following a 40 year old book intended for general indoor cultivation.

The powdered kool bloom is 2-45-28. The liquid is 0-10-10. Big Mike would say: "That's too much phosphorus." Yet what I see is insanely healthy and high yielding plants. :shrug:




I find it interesting he can claims this sort of stuff. People are constantly testing out different nutrients and breaking them down to ratios to see what increases yield and what can be cut to reduce the "fluff" of there mix.

I highly doubt that it's possible for a plant to need such minimal amounts of P during flowering and all this time no one was aware of it. This also wouldn't explain why buds swell up so much late in flower when you hit them with a bloom booster. Could by some fluke tens of thousands of growers be fooled?

As for hydroponics companies being more general and not focused towards medical marijuana I think Advanced Nutrients is more focused on labels and misrepresentation. There's a thread up on icmag that compares their Rhino Skin which is supposed to be some state of the art silica supplement @ 1% silica derived from potassium silicate which costs 35$ a bottle where Dynagrow is 7.8% potassium silicate and costs $15 a bottle. AN just bses and says their shit is 10 times better because they got scientists working around the clock on each of their 40+ products. So I mean you pay 18.2 times as much for essentially the same thing. I heard from someone over at icmag who used to be a sales rep for AN that their Kushie Kush is diluted barricade at an inflated cost for all the research put into it.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,163
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409880 - 05/01/10 07:34 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Nitrogen is the true limiting factor. But after that it's the phosphorus.




I don't really see how you can say a single nutrient is a limiting factor. Given all the things plants need to thrive such as nutrients (all of them), your medium considering oxygen and water, if your hydro your method of delivery to the roots, light.

Are you referring to this "limiting factor" to nutrients alone?

Quote:

In an ecological sense because nitrogen is very plentiful but phosphorous is not - google phosphorus cycle to see what I mean.




As this is the hydroponics forum, and we're discussing optimal plant nutrition... why the hell would anyone care about the phosphorus cycle or what is limiting in an ecological sense?


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409883 - 05/01/10 07:51 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Chemically speaking when calculating chemical reactions there is always one chemical that "limits" a reaction.

Biologically, behind the curtain, organisms are just doing thousands of chemical reactions building themselves.

With no nitrogen a plant, well..., can't exists.

All of chemicals being present makes phosphorus the limiting factor.

When I say limiting factor. I'm using a specific term used in chemistry. I don't know if I can explain it any better than this.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,163
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409885 - 05/01/10 07:59 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Chemically speaking when calculating chemical reactions there is always one chemical that "limits" a reaction.

Biologically, behind the curtain, organisms are just doing thousands of chemical reactions building themselves.

With no nitrogen a plant, well..., can't exists.




From what I can gather from your very poorly worded post you're just saying P is most abundant next to N? I really don't understand what you're trying to get across. I understand what a limiting factor is but beyond that I'm lost trying to figure out what you're rambling about.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409886 - 05/01/10 08:01 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

captain.koons said:
As this is the hydroponics forum, and we're discussing optimal plant nutrition... why the hell would anyone care about the phosphorus cycle or what is limiting in an ecological sense?





Because learning how the phosphorus cycle works lets you understand how phosphorous is used.

Understanding how plants use it and why it's that way will let you understand what I'm trying to explain to you.

That's why I said the guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

He's looking at the end product and saying the plants don't use it so why put it in. I'm explaining to you why they put it in.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409888 - 05/01/10 08:05 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

captain.koons said:
Quote:

Chemically speaking when calculating chemical reactions there is always one chemical that "limits" a reaction.

Biologically, behind the curtain, organisms are just doing thousands of chemical reactions building themselves.

With no nitrogen a plant, well..., can't exists.




From what I can gather from your very poorly worded post you're just saying P is most abundant next to N? I really don't understand what you're trying to get across. I understand what a limiting factor is but beyond that I'm lost trying to figure out what you're rambling about.





My post is not poorly worded. You just don't understand what a limiting factor is.

P limits how much N can be used.

You can have all the N in the world but the plant can't use it if there's no P.

P is the limiting factor.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: captain.koons]
    #409900 - 05/01/10 10:33 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, I'm going to break this down in complete specifics to see if I can finally get my point across.

Say the phosphorous in your fertilizer is in P2O5 form(most commonly is).

Once you add your fertilizer to water is disassociates into it respected ions. Basically its no longer P2O5.

All those ions start bouncing around doing all kinds of crazy chemical reactions.

Some end up forming PO43- and some form HPO42-

That's great, the plant can use these forms.

But guess what, that's not the only thing floating around in your mixture.

Uh oh, here comes some magnesium atoms. BAM! Now a salt is formed. No big deal it disassociate right back into ions right?

Maybe, but just then an ammonium ion happens to float by. Boom! ammonium magnesium phosphate is formed.

Just so happens this compound isn't very soluble in water. It sinks to the bottom away from the roots and can no longer be used by the plants.

That's just one example. Say some iron is floating by and hooks up with some phosphate. Don't expect the plant to be able to use that any time soon.

Point is, once that phosphorous is bouncing around picking up all these different atoms the plant can no longer use them.

They have a hard time, or can no longer be broken apart by water.

Don't you think adding extra phosphorous is a good idea knowing what we know chemical reactions and solubility?


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
cannoisseur
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Registered: 04/20/08
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Loc: Nepal Flag
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Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409902 - 05/01/10 10:45 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

So wait, you just completely switched side of the argument here Smurfy.  From your last post it's sounding to me like you're on board with Big Mike trying to say that extra phosphorus is bad for nutrient uptake. Which side of the fence are you on here? you just completely flip flopped.

For the record, ALL of the big nutrient manufacturing companies are completely aware of the reactions that you just listed which is why they present their nutrients in chelated, plant soluble forms. I promise you they have thought about this. When you add kool bloom with something like floranova which contains a small amount of ammonia and nitrate ions, they don't just react to salts and precipitate out of your hydro solution. GH would be bankrupt if that was the case.


Koons- I'm glad you posted this, I found that video a couple months ago and I was pretty reticent to just jump on board and assume he was telling the truth.  I was thinking what you were saying.... if phosphorus is so unimportant for plant growth, then why does EVERY bloom booster contain so damn much of it?


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #409905 - 05/01/10 11:16 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

In my first post I state that big mike doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't know which post made it sound like less phosphorous is good.

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
they don't just react to salts and precipitate out of your hydro solution





Chelate ions are more stable but they still disassociate.

You can't completely stop it from happening.



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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409906 - 05/01/10 11:22 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

No of course you can't completely stop it from happening, but they definitely have strategies for minimizing the solute precipitation.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #409909 - 05/01/10 11:26 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Yah, they chelate the ions like you said then they add extra phosphate because they know its going to happen eventually.

It's actually pretty basic.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/14/09
Posts: 645
Re: Phosphorus myth? [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409940 - 05/01/10 12:59 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry for getting angry, I blame it on the all nighter I pulled.

I guess I was using the wrong term.

What I meant instead of limiting factor I should have used the term limiting reactant.

I think alot of the confusion was where I said that the mike guy didn't know what he was talking about.

By that I meant when he was going off saying that since phosphorous is being over provided, your smoking it, and that's what causes the harshness and stuff which is complete BS.

I didn't realize this was the hydro forum and my explanation wasn't specified.

Mike never states in his video he's talking only hydro. He just keeps complaining asking why other peoples ferts have high P.

They add extra P because it leeches away the fastest. It's honestly that simple.

The ferts he's complaining about are not specifically for hydro. They have soil instructions also which explains the high P.

I completely understand the argument about if it's in a controlled environment such as a reservoir than why would you need a high P.

But if that was the case you'd be talking water with no minerals, no chlorine/chemicals, nothing.

If your using completely pure water then you don't have to worry about high P.

Also who cares if there's extra, I stated in my first post it didn't hurt anything. Just rest assured your plants are running at full potential.



Also, I'm never wrong so when I really am it's hard for me to catch it. I just go off spewing information thinking I'm right regardless. I'm sure people learned something from this thread even though I derailed the fuck out of it.


Edited by DoPeYsMuRf (05/01/10 01:07 PM)


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