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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Perfect LED panel
    #554792 - 05/11/11 05:47 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I am looking in to getting some LED panels from China. They will manufacture to my specs, as far as voltage, wavelength/ratio, and wattage.
What would be the perfect light?
I've been lurking around here for a while, and done a couple grows with a homemade 150W HPS and DWC in 3 gal buckets. I think HPS make them stretch too much in veg, and heat is always an issue.
All the threads I've read, people are very negative towards LED's except for the person using it. What are issues we have with lights now? Any light sources. What is better with some lights vs others?
Here's my list so far.

MH
HID- Requires Ballast
High light output for power consumption
Available in various wattage
High heat output - from ballast and bulb
Relatively wide blue spectrum best suited for vegetative growth only
Moderate price
Moderate lifespan on bulb - long life on ballast

HPS
HID - requires ballast
High light output for power consumption
Available in various wattage
High heat output- from ballast and bulb
Relatively wide red spectrum- best suited for flowering only
Moderate price
Moderate lifespan on bulb - long life on ballast

Fluorescent
requires ballst - often built in to fixture or CFL bulb - often not an added expense
Low light output- requires more bulbs
Low power consumption
Available in various wattage
Available in various styles
Lower heat than HID- most from ballast
Available in "Warm" or "Cool" spectrum - need to change bulbs between growth stages.
Low price
Shorter lifespan on bulb - moderate ballast life - will need to replace bulbs and fixtures more often

LED
Requires circuitry to drive LEDs- built in to fixture
low light output- LED grow lights are arrays of many LEDs to get high output
Very low power consumption
arrays available in different wattages and styles
Spectrum specific- can be manufactured to produce exactly the wavelengths needed for plant growth- Reds, blues, violets, oranges, reds, yellows, whites, even UV and IR (IR would not be beneficial IMHO)
High price
Very long life on LEDs - long life on driver cicuitry if properly cooled - usually fans are built in to fixture to cool electronics

HID's are good for High light output, but for best scenario, you need MH and HPS, which requires 2 ballasts, or a switchable one, and 2 bulbs. They also put out a LOT of heat from ballast and bulbs. To get full spectrum, both would need to be used in conjunction.

Fluorescents are good for low cost, low output light for cuttings and clones, cooler - light can be closer to plants, low cost - have to be replaced more often. Bulb spectrums can be changed between growth stages - fixtures can support any spectrum - can mix spectrums in same fixture. (if using multi-tube fixture)

LEDs put out a lot of light, and have very low power consumption. Custom spectrums- any mixture of any wavelength, can be targeted for veg or flower, or both mixed, can target spectrum to a particular type plant if required. Could probably be manufactures to have switchable spectrum- I will check on this. They also run very cool -can place extremely close to plant. LEDs have an extremely long lifespan, individual LEDs are inexpensive - arrays can be repaired if individual LEDs burn out- could possibly be built so that they are "easily" replaced by pulling the bad one and pluggin a new one in- will check on this.

Basically, what would an LED have to do to overcome the issues? Is the up-front cost the major problem? What would be the ideal spectrum for our purposes?

I am currently without employment, and I really don't want to go back to work for the "man" or his idea of what our society should be like, so I'm trying to get my own little business started. I don't have any of these LEDs yet, and am not selling anything yet. I'm current;y trying to get the mfr to let me test one out - one of their standard models. it does 630nm & 660 nm Red: 460nm Blue: 610-615nm Orange in a 7:1:1 ratio (red:blue:orange) they can make any spectrum/ratio i specify.

So what do you guys think?
What would be the ultimate in spectrum?
Would you want to be able to switch off the reds independent of the blues? Switch on or off a specific wavelength? Have a few green that you can use to see in the dark cycle? thought, comments are Highly sought. Hopefully I can talk them into sending me a unit to test, so I can do a grow log with it. I live in an Apt now with sub par HVAC. HID's will not work here beacause of heat issues. Fluorescents seem weak to me from my experiece, and now my space is too small for my tube fixtures. Heat is an issue and I have my 2'x2' space centered over an AC vent. At the prices I was quoted I should be able to sell them cheaper than anyone else online, as long as I can get enough to offset shipping costs from China. 

Thoughts?


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Offlinealienscience
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #554798 - 05/11/11 06:00 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't read your full post, but I have grown with LEDs and have to say that they are very 'fun'.  But, I think they are still in very early stages of development, using them requires you to almost work with them.  What I mean is that they are still being tailored to growing specifications and grower's with them have to adjust their plants and lights to work together. 

I grew with the chinese models and found that they help the plant grow as a whole rather than by height or yeild.  It's like they are water to a sponge where as HIDs are more of water to a balloon.  If used correctly, LEDs are great lights. 

I do not think their selling of point of 'requiring low wattages' has been perfected yet, simply because they aren't perfectly constructed for plants.  Introducing the blue/red only spectrum has helped, as well as the size/layout of the bulbs.  But, you constantly have to make sure the plant is in a neutral state; the canopy has to be open and "willing" to take ambient light rather than with HIDs, which penetrate and flourish.

Most of what I just said is jargon, but I hope it helps.  Gl.


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Invisiblemhbound
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: alienscience]
    #554801 - 05/11/11 06:18 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

What he said is pretty much what I have to say just in different words. If you want fat dense buds you need the MH/HPS =]

Give me some more details on these people first. What type LED's are they using? Like I've seen them being built with 1 watt leds which is the only type I personally would consider and even then LED's just can't do what MH/HPS can.

I haven't seen much with them but honestly if you intend to do a mass grow for profit you really just need to jump on the MH/HPS wagon. LED's are good to supplement lighting because of their direct color spectrum which they output, but they haven't(and probably won't) match the spectrum that you get from the HPS or MH. I thought about them and I just ended up not ordering it because from what I can see they just aren't worth it yet.

If you have other reasons such as heat, electricity consumption, etc. then I understand and I'll try to help a little more if I can but my first suggestion is to try to use the MH/HPS if at all possible because of obvious flaws in the LED systems out there...Its going to be hit or miss with MH/HPS its tried and true and will work every time I can guarantee it, something those LED manufacturers probably can't say.


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Edited by mhbound (05/11/11 06:23 PM)


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: alienscience]
    #554802 - 05/11/11 06:22 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

The mfr I'm looking at also makes LED "tubes" that fit in a T8 fixture/socket, only the driver cicuit is built in the tube, so no need for ballast in fixture. I thinks these might be effective for side lighting, although panels can be used on sides too, the tubes are cheaper than panels though.


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: mhbound]
    #554807 - 05/11/11 06:36 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I have a small space and live in an apt - in OP. Not trying to do a mass grow, have a 150W HPS I built in a 2'x2' cardboard space. I think the LEDs have a lot of potential. I know you can get a good crop using 1000W of MH and HPS. It has been done millions of times and is the tried and true method.
I like Hydro better than soil. Why? my plants seem to like it. Well, you say they seen to like the soil outside too, and the sunlight. Lots of people have issues with heat and such generated by HID when growing in small spaces. There just isn't much "real-world" info out there on LEDs (growers like us) I thought I might go in to business if I couold figure out the right spectrum combination, plus some other feature mentioned in OP.
Basically I would like to know What would it take to get someone to switch from what works for them, to something different.
I used to be fine with HPS in a different space. I had more room, better A/C, and better ventilation. Now I sweat in the room with my grow space, and my A/C is on 65 constantly. You can see why someone like me has an interest in less heat and less electricity consumption. I even have my AC going directly into my grow box.
I would like to try and start selling some sort of products for people like us. There is no local place to go. And internet orders can sometimes tip off the wrong kind of people. I was really just looking for peoples opinion of LEDs.
If you could conjure a light source that could be whatever you want, what would it be? (short of a stay-cool micro star that would float above your plant in the grow space, put out light equal to the sun, with no heat- this is what I want) but lets try to keep it realistic.


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: mhbound]
    #554810 - 05/11/11 06:44 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

the standard model 300watt fixture has 288 1 watt LEDs in a 7:1:1 ratio of red:blue:orange. 630nm & 660nm Red : 460nm Blue : 610-615nm orange. The mfr has stated that they will custom build panels to my specs as far as wavelengths and their ratio. I haven't been able to ask yet, but they will most likely customize in other ways also. I think being able to switch certain wavelengths on or off may be benefical. Personally I think it would be nice to have a few 500nm greens that you could switch on if you needed to work with plants during the dark cycle.


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #554871 - 05/12/11 03:23 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so I may be closer to getting some of these panels than I thought. The mfr is really trying to make a sale with me. I'm really trying to talk them in to a demo unit I can test to make sure it's gonna work. If so, the prices they are offering me are pretty good from what i've seen other LED panels selling for. What wavelengths would be ideal for MJ. Should it get red and blue all the time, or is it better to give only blue during veg, and only red during flower? I'm thinking full spectrum full time as the sun is a full spectrum... What do you think of green lights for dark cycle?


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #554874 - 05/12/11 05:08 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

This guy really wants to sell me some lights. I really want to get that sample out of him.
He says the wavelengths and ratios are completely to my spec
I specifically asked about UV, 500nm greens, built in timers and switching. no response from the mfr yet.

@mhound they have several differnt type lights, UFO style with 90 LEDS can get them in 1W, 2W, or 3W. In rectangular lights, they make with 119, 288, 144, and 576 LEDs in 1W, 2W, or 3W. They also have tube style lights with 10, 15, 20 or 25 1W LEDs
I only have the info on the 288 1w model for PAR it is:
1237.4 umol m^2 s @ 15cm

Depending on shipping I should be able to get them in the $150 range (for a 90W UFO style)

Lets keep our fingers crossed for a sample :smile:


Edited by djnoktirnal (05/12/11 05:27 AM)


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InvisiblePandor

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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #554939 - 05/12/11 02:21 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Just adding my 2cents, I am not an expert. However, I did try to pull something off where I did not have to work and grew as a job.

4 1000 w HPS lights (air cooled reflectors) in a flower room, 4 T5s in a veg room, 2 stand alone ACs, one going 24/7 in the flower room....

That added up to a 1400 per month electricity bill in California.

To me that reason alone is enough to try LEDs. I have no experience what so ever with a LED light, but the fact that one electricity bill in my old grow house was enough to by a pretty sick LED makes me believe that it is definately worth giving them a shot.

Do you lose a little in yeild?
Some say yes, some say they yeild more.

But the potential loss in yeild would have to be massive to make me ever consider using a HPS again. Cheaper to buy the setup, but the cost of running and cooling them is a joke IMO.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck with your decision. I see more and more threads about LEDs popping up left and right, and I would not be one bit suprised if soon HID lighting becomes a thing of the past.

One more thing, not sure if you seen it, but i think on rollitup.org there is a 300 page thread titled "LED users unite". There you can see more pictures and testimonials of LED users.


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OfflineOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #554954 - 05/12/11 03:10 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Whatever you do, stay away from the 50W LED panels with 10mm 0.5w LEDs. They work fine for growing, but the power supplies are NOT current-regulated and they are prone to blow out and take many LEDs with them.

I bought a 120w LED fixture with 1W LEDs that has been working fine for over a year. The problem is it is only putting about about 25-30 lumens per watt.

Now, I know that lumens is not the correct measurement for plants, but as a comparison, My homemade 60W unit puts out more light than the factory 120W as it is putting out about 55 lumens per watt.

BTW folks, stay tuned as I am working on a new lamp that may revolutionize the whole market. Yes, yes, you have heard all the hype before, but there are some new developments that could be a game-changer.

These lamps will be putting out over 100 lumens per watt when driven at the low end down to 70 lumens per watt when driven at the high end.

Why drive at the high end? Well how about one lamp variable from 90 to 360 watts using the same LEDs? Current lamps can be tweaked down, but lose lots of power to the dimming mechanism. Others can turn LEDS completely off. This is an entirely different approach.

Here is the other BIG news. These lamps will ONLY be using white leds. White LEDs have not been efficient for horticulture in the past because they have two peaks, one in the blue region (good) and one in the green/yellow region (not so good). These new ones will have a peak in the blue region and the another peak at 630nm (orange-red) which slopes into the 660nm (near-red), 720nm (far red), and infrared regions. This will make them awesome for flowering as well as vegging.

I will also make it very easy to replace a defective LED.

Please don't get too excited yet as I/we are at least a year from market. Cannot answer any specifics at this time.


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: Pandor]
    #554965 - 05/12/11 03:38 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Pandor. I like your avatar :grin:. I would never be able to afford that electric bill. Mine sometimes gets over $300 and I freak out. I would love to grow as a job. I read through your grow log. It was awesome! Sorry you had to let it go. I think LEDs definitely have their place. All light sources have pros and cons.

I started growing a couple of seeds under a 150W HPS. I can't afford the LEDs right now. But the guy in china has offered to let me get 1 at a time. Shipping will probably make that, financially for me, not viable. But I'm not sure of the shipping yet, maybe not.


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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #554966 - 05/12/11 03:40 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

The mfr I'm talking to uses either 1W, 2W, or 3W LEDs. He did not specify the brand.


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OfflineOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #555000 - 05/12/11 05:26 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Like I say, the wattage alone means little as it tells nothing of its efficacy. We need to know how much power is converted to light and how much of that light is usable by the plant(spectrum). View angle is also important depending on your growing style. And don't forget the warrantee. An awesome light on spec sheets that fails prematurely will grow nothing.

On a tangent, when I first started many people recommended a cheap 150W HPS for a small space. Turns out the cheap ballast added another 165W. watts, so the total LPW measurement was much worse than T5s and some CFLs. All relevant factors must be taken into account.


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InvisiblePandor

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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #555010 - 05/12/11 05:45 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

If I was on a budget and couldn't afford a LED, I would try flowering with flourescents. Less density on the buds (so I hear) but so much cheaper than HPS.

I am still researching LEDs, but my understanding was that you want at least 3w diodes. Is this wrong? I have a link to an excellent article on LEDs by hightimes, but it is on my computer at home. If I remember when I get back, I will link it.

One think I was considering was doing a combination of LEDs and flourescents on both the top and sides of the grow area. Just a thought, Haven't fully researched it yet, but the idea seems to have potential. I even saw and advertisement in some mag for a combo LED flourescent and it seemed like a great idea. Can't remember the name of the light, but it was by Sunsystems I think.


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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: Pandor]
    #555016 - 05/12/11 06:02 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: Pandor]
    #555019 - 05/12/11 06:11 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I am still researching LEDs, but my understanding was that you want at least 3w diodes.




Third and final time, not sure why saying again will get through: the wattage of the chip is not important, but the efficacy. At the time of the article, the 3 watters being reviewed by the author had the greatest LPW ratio. Are ALL 3 watters better? No. Do 3 watters still have the best LPW ratio? No.

Of course, the other main factor is cost per lumen. There are 10W white LEDs capable of 130 LPW, but cost 3.5 times as much as 10W LEDs capable of 100 LPW. Great for research or very limited applications. Horrible for large gardens.


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OfflineOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: chowdan]
    #555020 - 05/12/11 06:14 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Look at the lumen output then check out the price and answer your own question.

I don't mind helping out, but dig in a little deeper, people. The basics are not beyond anybody here.


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #555035 - 05/12/11 07:26 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

They don't specify output in Lumens. Lumens measures the spectrum the human eye sees. It is more sensitive to yellows and greens, and less with reds and blues. They did specify Photosynthically Active Radiation @ 15cm is 1237.4 micromoles per meter squared per second.
there are 6.023E^23 photons in a mole.
this is equal to 745,286,020,000,000,000,000 photons of radiation in frequecies that can be used in photosynthesis, being radiated onto a square meter surface every second with the light 15cm above the surface. This number drops further from the surface.
Because lumens and PAR are not convertible, ther is no comparison. The Lumens a light outputs has nothing to do with the PAR a light outputs, and vise-versa. Both are useful measurements, as long as you can compare lumens to lumens and PAR to PAR. What is the PAR output of a 150W HPS? I do not know. Plants reflect a lot of the spectrum that lumens covers, and we cannot see the spectrum that PAR measures as well. IMHO, PAR is a better measure for dealing with plants, as that is specifically what the measurement was designed for. Lumens will tell you how bright a light will be to your eyes. The delemma is that a lot of HID bulbs specify output in Lumens, and PAR is the usual measurement given to LEDs. Hope that helps with output. This is for a LED panel that contains 288 1W LEDs in frequencies from 460nm blue - 660nm red (actual wavelengths are 460nm blue, 610-615nm orange, 630nm and 660nm red in a 7:1:1 red:blue:orange ratio)


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OfflineOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #555040 - 05/12/11 08:08 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

You are not telling me anything I am unaware of - note I already made such a disclaimer. As most mfgs do not publish that info one has to go by other things. Also note this is basically a primer for noobs who are doing rough comparisons.

Quote:

This number drops further from the surface.



Yes and?

You may find it interesting that a few years back an engineer compared a household flouro to a specifically designed horticultural flouro. The household one with the wrong spectrum clearly outperformed the horticultural light because it was more efficient in converting electricity to light.

Same with HPS. The spectra is horrible for plants from a design standpoint, but the lumen output more than compensates. This is due to the Emerson Effect. Despite popular misconception, plants can and do use yellow and green light.

The trick is to get BOTH the optimal spectral curve AND significant photonic output from a lamp.


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/12/11 08:41 PM)


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Perfect LED panel [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #555099 - 05/13/11 12:42 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

The trick is to get BOTH the optimal spectral curve AND significant photonic output from a lamp.




:thumbup:


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