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 captain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,170
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 Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled?  [Re: boomsaway]
#413727 - 05/08/10 01:01 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
boomsaway said:
i dunno koons, when you top up like that for too long your water gets really toxic
the chelates that most of your minerals are attached to dont get absorbed by the plant, eventually the concentration of EDTA and such gets too high.
Define "too long" I've gone a 4week veg and 2 weeks flower without changing the reservoir and only topping it off.
I've never heard of chelating agents not being up taken by the plant. EDTA for example is commonly used in GenHy products (and basically everyone elses) The goal for the EDTA is to keep the minerals from reacting and becoming insoluble or precipitating from the solution.
I've heard that EDTA isn't biodegradable which would make me suspicious as to if it's taken up by the plant or not.
For clarity, I'm not saying you're wrong but I believe what you're saying is EDTA bound to minerals when uptaken by the plant yields just the EDTA left in the solution and not any of the mineral such as Iron?
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boomsaway
Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 95
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: captain.koons]
#413808 - 05/08/10 08:41 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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yea, exactly, but "too long" depends on the size of your reservoir, in smaller rezs, the concentration goes up significantly faster than in larger rezs
if your useing a 100L rez, then your likely to be able to top off for longer than if your useing a 50L, make sense?
but without titration equipment, you'll never be able to tell how much is in there at one time.
do a little research on chelating agents, ur right about them keeping minerals from reacting with each other, and to increase solubility of iron and such, but the molecules are far too large for a plant to absorb through root membranes
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal 
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: boomsaway]
#413954 - 05/08/10 01:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I doubt that. If mycelia can grow coenocytic haustoria through the membrane then I would guess there are transport mechanisms to get just about any sized compound into the plant tissues.
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captain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,170
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: boomsaway]
#414031 - 05/08/10 04:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
boomsaway said:
if your useing a 100L rez, then your likely to be able to top off for longer than if your useing a 50L, make sense?
do a little research on chelating agents, ur right about them keeping minerals from reacting with each other, and to increase solubility of iron and such, but the molecules are far too large for a plant to absorb through root membranes
Reservoir size is relative to the amount of plants you use.
How big are these molecules? Do you even know about how plant roots work? If you look into aeroponics you'll see that plants can be force fed droplets sized 30-80 microns in diameter and possibly much larger as nasa used to use 140microns, are you saying EDTA molecules are bigger than this?
This is also just speaking for aeroponics plants take up very large molecules all the time, they can spend a great deal of energy uptaking macro molecules (usually large complex organic molecules such as insoluble sugars) for the breakdown via catabolism. Large molecules aren't something people want in hydroponics as the idea of hydroponics is to provide minerals directly available to the plants metabolism, or you're just wasting time. Needless to say anything you find in General Hydroponics Flora series is going to be small enough to be uptaken easily and is directly available to the plants metabolism without further being broken down. This is what hydroponics is all about.
Again, are you trying to say that FeEDTA when utilized by a plant is going to have it's bond between the chelating agent (EDTA) and the mineral Fe broken so that the plant will uptake Fe and leave the EDTA behind? What causes them to separate? Is there some sort of bottleneck where the Fe gets into the plant roots and the EDTA is physically broken off and left in the solution?
I'm sorry to have amused myself, but to say such an outlandish claim without providing literature is just asking for it. Just because something isn't biodegradable doesn't mean it's not good for plants.
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boomsaway
Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 95
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: captain.koons]
#414280 - 05/08/10 10:58 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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heres a quick wiki... Quote:
Toxicity and environmental considerations
EDTA is in such widespread use that it has emerged as a persistent organic pollutant.[18] Its degradation entails conversion to ethylenediaminetriacetic acid, which then cyclizes. Alternative, more readily degradable chelating agents are being developed such as ethylenediamine-N,N'-disuccinic acid.
here
and i wouldnt say that its too hard to figure out that the acids in the solution degrade the chelate, whether thats what allows uptake of the metal ion into the plant or not, leaving you with excess "empty" compound, unuseable by the plant.
so maybe it does get taken into the plant, that doesnt mean that the plant will use enough of the chelate in the solution fast enough to keep it from degrading.
i could be wrong, but i might not be, and im sure that nutrient companies do compensate for anything of this sort, i just figure y bother, change the rez... anyway, im tired
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captain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,170
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: boomsaway]
#414303 - 05/08/10 11:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alternative, more readily degradable chelating agents are being developed such as ethylenediamine-N,N'-disuccinic acid.
Degradable = biodegradable, you shouldn't assume any information that isn't written.
Quote:
i could be wrong, but i might not be, and im sure that nutrient companies do compensate for anything of this sort, i just figure y bother, change the rez... anyway, im tired
I don't even know if I want to address this.
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TROLLS NEED LOVE TOO!
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: captain.koons]
#414340 - 05/09/10 02:36 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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You should be changing the res at least once a week anyways. The plants use different amounts of nutrients at different times. So if you just keep topping off you will get uneven amounts of nutrients in your water. And can even end up with toxic amounts of one or another.
Now during veg it may not effect it as much. But during flowering you should definitely be doing it weekly. I guarantee that you will get better results. I would NEVER go 4 weeks just topping off.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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boomsaway
Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 95
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: Hawksresurrection]
#414370 - 05/09/10 08:20 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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>Degradable = biodegradable
just because something degrades, doesnt mean that it degrades into compounds that have no(ill or not)effect on the environment.
the alternative agents are being developed because of the ill effects that degraded EDTA has on the environment...
otherwise why would they need to correct it?
better yet, i have an AOC lecture class coming up in the fall, ill see what my teach will have to say about EDTA and its degradation.
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captain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,170
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: Hawksresurrection]
#414540 - 05/09/10 12:49 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said:
You should be changing the res at least once a week anyways. The plants use different amounts of nutrients at different times. So if you just keep topping off you will get uneven amounts of nutrients in your water. And can even end up with toxic amounts of one or another.
Now during veg it may not effect it as much. But during flowering you should definitely be doing it weekly. I guarantee that you will get better results. I would NEVER go 4 weeks just topping off.
The more you know about the strain you're running the less this matters. You're right to an extent. If I ran into problems with deficiencies or burn I couldn't fix I would definitely empty my reservoir. I would also probably think of emptying my reservoir after the two week flower stretch and then you're only controlling the reservoir contents for 6-7weeks with most strains when you consider the flush. I don't run extreme ppms and I also don't run single part fertilizers. I wouldn't try this with GH Floranova.
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captain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,170
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: boomsaway]
#414541 - 05/09/10 12:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
boomsaway said:
>Degradable = biodegradable
just because something degrades, doesnt mean that it degrades into compounds that have no(ill or not)effect on the environment.
the alternative agents are being developed because of the ill effects that degraded EDTA has on the environment...
otherwise why would they need to correct it?
better yet, i have an AOC lecture class coming up in the fall, ill see what my teach will have to say about EDTA and its degradation.
Why the hell are you going on about the environment now? I was simply pointing out that EDTA is being written about and there's that replacement in the source you posted simply because EDTA has problems with it being non-biodegradable. The replacement is more biodegradable. As an indoor gardener you don't need things to be biodegradable. It is also foolish to assume that EDTA isn't uptaken by plants when you haven't quoted anything that even implies as much.
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TROLLS NEED LOVE TOO!
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 Mr. Hands
Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 89
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: captain.koons]
#416072 - 05/11/10 08:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok!
I got a bunch of reverse osmosis'ed water from Culligan. I also picked up some distilled water. Both clocked out at 10 ppm with my meter. So far so good. Then I got some spring water from the store. It clocked out at 250 ppm.
I have a 40 gallon resevoir. I put 5 gallons of spring water in (to add some micronutrients) and then 35 gallons of reverse osmosis water. My initial ppm was 60. Then I added my nutrients and got it up to about 1250 ppm. I have been topping off with distilled water. There is not a drop of tap water in this batch. Hopefully this solves my problems.
Unfortunately, I still can't empty my resevoir on a regular basis so I risk nutrient toxicity issues. But, I will be closely watching my ppm's and PH and dumping a lot of distilled water in to keep my ppm's at a reasonable level.
Hopefully I get better results!
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Oatman2000
-=Outa Space=-
Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 203
Loc: Planetary Nebula
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#418299 - 05/15/10 11:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
Quote:
Mr. Hands said:
Quick search of a 240 gallon per day R.O. machine - $940.
Yikes.
You didn't look very hard
http://www.rvfgardensupply.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=728820
Do you know if this hooks up to a hose connection?
Or is this something you need to hook up in you house line?
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 Spawning to COIR
Building a flood table out of 2 kiddie pools
 Ebb and Gro - Buckets 2000w
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4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine
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Mr. Hands
Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 89
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: Oatman2000]
#424261 - 05/26/10 04:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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I am starting to get end-leaf burnage again. Granted, I still have 3 1/2 weeks to go, so we'll see what happens. But, I am not optimistic.
Not to diss you hydro guys, but I think it is easier to throw some plants in a pot with soil and occasionally water it and call it a day. With the amount of expense and time I spend getting "clean water", filling the resevoir, emptying the resevoir, buying rockwool and nutes and checking ppm and PH I would save money, time and be further ahead just growing the old-fashioned way. 
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Mr. Hands
Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 89
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: What does it mean when the ends of your leaves are a little brown and curled? [Re: Mr. Hands]
#438110 - 06/26/10 03:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow. I must really suck at this.
The reverse osmosis water experiment failed terribly. I didn't even get a joint's worth off of my harvest. It was all stringy and sparse buds that were not worth smoking.
I have gone back to using tap water. Instead of changing the resevoir in week 3 of budding and trying to top off the rest of the time, I have changed the resevoir at the beginning of week 3 budding and week 5 during budding. My plants are still looking like crap.
To be honest, I was getting harvests of six ounces off of dumping ungodly amounts of BC Bud products in and the second I went to Flora Nova and started keeping my ppm's from 1100-1500 I started getting NOTHING. I am thinking of going back to BC, but I can't fathom what I am doing wrong here because everybody raves about Flora stuff.
P.S. I also started some potted plants in the budding cycle with organic soil and worm castings. The leaves are curling and turning all kinds of funny colors.
Plants just don't like me.
How was I able to get six ounces consistently by using BC products, not changing my resevoir and having WAY over 1800 ppm's, but when I use Flora Nova and I keep my ppm's in check I get nothing?
Edited by Mr. Hands (06/26/10 03:04 PM)
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