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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve
    #268736 - 08/22/09 02:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Specifically SFV OG kush.

Friend is looking for true OGer seeds.


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #268868 - 08/22/09 10:41 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Since it's a clone only strain somebody better have feminized seeds or it's not the real og kush.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269024 - 08/22/09 02:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

he used an afghani#1 male and did a series of selection to get a good SFV representation.

Apparently every generation he selects from hundreds of seeds, but who knows if that's true. It's apparently taken him 2+ years to get to where he is now with his SFV representation.

don't s1's from clones generally produce lots of variation unless they happen to be highly inbred? IE fem'd cinderella 99 or purple urkle shouldn't have much variation but something that happens to be a lucky phenotype without much work done would end up having all sorts of phenos in the femmed seeds?

This is his breeding technique.

On my sfv projects. here is exactly how and or whats what..

i recieved pollen from capt he gave me afghani#1 pollen. i then hit my sfv ogk clone . thus creating f1's this was seriously 2 years ago. i will put an exact date when i go through the records and see. i made the f1's ran those and chose a good male and female to make f2's. i didnt have to many beans to work with so i was just hoping to get lucky and i did. i then took the clone of the male i had and grew him out and made the ogk F2 and bx1 seeds. once i harvested the f2's i ran about 150 of them to find what i was looking for to continue the line. the sfv ogk pheno closest to the mom... i had around 50 females and 20 males to choose from. after grabbing clones and running the moms to find what i was looking for. i narrowed it down to around 10-20 ladies and i believe 1-2 males.. i then vegged the clones from the perspective mother and flowered them, these f2's were pollinated by the male i chose, creating f3's. from the f1 to the f3 i spent a solid year and a half on , it also helps having a few flowering spots to work with though, not just one spot ya know. after harvesting the f3 seeds i ran again about 200 of them this time. i like to select from large lots not 20-30-even 50 seeds. i like selection. after the start of the f3's i saw a lot of uniformity in the plants once i grabbed clones from them, i flowered them thus resulting in some serious selection and culling.. some were killer but to tall and lenghty, some where not to dank, some were really dank but didnt yeild, some were just right... i ended up with a serious stud male out of about 25 different dudes. and shit i dont even know how many ladies about 50 that were what i was looking for.. after harvest on them and smoke and features and this and that i ended up with 20 ladies that i was in love with.. i worked them down to the top 3.. which i am flowering out with chemD and master kush to get my smoke on with as its fire dank just like mommy but from seed. hahahaha i love it.. so my stud male hit the ladies making me an ass load of f4's. i have f4 seeds of og kush and bx2 seeds .. i has taken me 2 years and prob 1 mayb 2 months to get here.. so this isnt no rush job and it isnt just a quike thing like some might say... i have put some serious time and effort into making sure these babies are just like the mom and i am doing my best to represent the sfv og to its truest form via seed.

when i do my f5 i will once again start around 150-200 seeds to narrow down to the one stellar lady and dude . the f5 i make will be sfv ogk in seed form male female true to its mommy.....

i will b back in a bit well later or tom to b honest as it the m-i-l bday today. but i will b back to talk about every other strain i have worked on and or made


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269051 - 08/22/09 04:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

He should be cloning back to the original Mother plant with each new generation of seeds.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269056 - 08/22/09 04:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't personally know, that's generally what I've always thought the proper procedure was.

Chimera however did an article on backcrossing and I could find it for you if you care enough to read it. He basically says that back crossing doesn't achieve a true representation of the original clone and that inbreeding/selection is far more crucial.

Example of this would be woodhorse trainwreck they have backcrossed but they put a lot of work into selection. This seems to be the best representation of trainwreck, then again I haven't

Swerve said he does plan on crossing a f5 male to the original SFV clone to sum up his breeding efforts.

--

Any suggestions on where to look? DNA offers some, Dr green thumb offers some, anyone else?


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269061 - 08/22/09 04:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Myself I'd do every new batch and breed them into the mother. From those select one closest to the mother each batch, By doing this you would have almost pure OG Kush genetics which is what he should be going for if he is gonna be selling the seeds as OG Kush. This way you would also need far less seed to find one that is a true representative of the og kush line.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269063 - 08/22/09 05:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

you wouldn't have happened to do this with OG kush would ya? haha


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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269214 - 08/22/09 10:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Two projects going with it now. One like I was saying with a male of another strain then crossing the f1 seeds back to the original mother each generation, That takes like 5 or 6 back crosses to the original mother before you can get rid of close to 99% of the father plants genetics.

The other project is creating pollen from a treated og clone and doing feminized seed.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269218 - 08/22/09 11:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

any etas on either of those projects?


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269270 - 08/23/09 01:05 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Cubing.......a myth.

Here's breeder chimera's take on the subject:

"you’ve just discovered the biggest myth (IMNSHO) of marijuana breeding- it is a mistake that almost EVERYONE makes (including many of the most respected breeders!).

Backcrossing will not stabilize a strain at all- it is a technique that SHOULD be used to reinforce or stabilize a particular trait, but not all of them.

For e.g.- G13 is a clone, which I would bet my life on is not true breeding for every, or even most traits- this means that it is heterozygous for these traits- it has two alleles (different versions of a gene). No matter how many times you backcross to it, it will always donate either of the two alleles to the offspring. This problem can be compounded by the fact that the original male used in the cross (in this case hashplant) may have donated a third allele to the pool- kinda makes things even more difficult!

So what does backcrossing do?
It creates a population that has a great deal of the same genes as the mother clone. From this population, if enough plants are grown, individuals can be chosen that have all the same traits as the mother, for use in creating offspring that are similar (the same maybe) as the original clone.
Another problem that can arise is this- there are three possibilities for the expression of a monogenic (controlled by one gene pair) trait.

We have dominant, recessive, and co-dominant conditions.

In the dominant condition, genotypically AA or Aa, the plants of these genotypes will look the same (will have the same phenotype, for that trait).

Recessive- aa will have a phenotype

Co-dominant- Aa- these plants will look different from the AA and the aa.

A perfect example of this is the AB blood types in humans:

Type A blood is either AA or AO
Type B blood is either BB or BO
Type AB blood is ONLY AB
Type O blood is OO.

In this case there are three alleles (notated A, B, and O respectively).

If the clone has a trait controlled by a co-dominant relationship- i.e. the clone is Aa (AB in the blood example) we will never have ALL plants showing the trait- here is why:

Suppose the clone mother is Aa- the simplest possibility is that the dad used contributes one of his alleles,
let us say A. That mean the boy being use for the first backcross is either AA or Aa. We therefore have two possibilities:

1) If he is AA- we have AA X Aa- 50% of the offspring are AA, 50% are Aa. (you can do the punnett square to prove this to yourself).

In this case only 50% of the offspring show the desired phenotype (Aa genotype)!

2) If the boy being used is Aa- we have Aa X Aa (again do the punnett square) this gives a typical F2 type segregation- 25% AA, 50% Aa, and 25% aa.
This shows that a co-dominant trait can ONLY have 50% of the offspring showing the desired trait (Aa genotype) in a backcross.

If the phenotype is controlled by a dominant condition- see example #1- all 100% show the desired phenotype, but only 50% will breed true for it.

If the phenotype is controlled by a recessive condition- see example #2- only 25% will show the desired phenotype, however if used for breeding these will all breed true if mated to another aa individual.

Now- if the original dad (hashplant) donates an 'a' allele, we only have the possibilities that the offspring, from which the backcross boy will be chosen, will be either Aa or aa.
For the Aa boy, see #2.
For the aa boy (an example of a test cross, aa X Aa) we will have:
50% aa offspring (desired phenotype), and 50% Aa offspring.

Do you see what is happening here? Using this method of crossing to an Aa clone mother, we can NEVER have ALL the offspring showing the desired phenotype! Never! Never ever ever! Never!! LOL

The ONLY WAY to have all the offspring show a Aa phenotype is to cross an AA individual with an aa individual- all of the offspring from this union will be the desired phenotype, with an Aa genotype.

Now, all of that was for a Aa genotype for the desired phenotype. It isn't this complicated if the trait is AA or aa. I hope this causes every one to re-evaluate the importance of multiple backcrosses- it just doesn't work to stabilize the trait!

Also- that was all for a monogenic trait! What if the trait is controlled by a polygenic interaction or an epistatic interaction- it gets EVEN MORE complicated? AARRGH!!!!

Really, there is no need to do more than 1 backcross. From this one single backcross, as long as we know what we are doing, and grow out enough plants to find the right genotypes, we can succeed at the goal of eventually stabilizing most, if not all of the desired traits.

The confusion arises because we don't think about the underlying biological causes of these situations- to really understand this; we all need to understand meiosis.

We think of math-e.g. 50% G13, 50% hashplant

Next generation 50% G13 x 50% g13hp or (25% G13, 25%HP)

We interpret this as an additive property:
50% G13 + 25% G13 +25% HP = 75% G13 and 25% hashplant

This is unfortunately completely false- the same theory will apply for the so called 87.%% G13 12.5% HP next generation, and the following 93.25% G13, 6.25% HP generation; we'd like it to be true as it would make stabilizing traits fairly simple, but it JUST DOESN'T work that way. The above is based on a mathematical model, which seems to make sense- but it doesn't- we ignore the biological foundation that is really at play.

I hope this was clear, I know it can get confusing, and I may not have explained it well enough- sorry if that is the case, I'll try to clear up any questions or mistakes I may have made.

Have fun everyone while making your truebreeding varieties, but just remember that cubing (successive backcrosses) is not the way to do it!

-Chimera"


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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269277 - 08/23/09 01:21 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

interesting stuff i have to say


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Mushr00m_Man]
    #269327 - 08/23/09 03:22 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Chimera has a degree in genetics/neuro-science or something like that.

Cubing effectively reduces the dominance of the father genes but there will still be a selection process needed to select all the desired traits to truly reach the mother.

Chimera would argue that with proper selection back crossing more than once isn't needed. Woodhorse trainwreck displays this well but I don't have personal experience. I've run cheese from seed which is a uk cheese x afghani back crossed 5 times to the uk cheese and there was definitely variation, I'm not sure how close to the uk clone it would be as I've never grown the uk clone.

The pictures and descriptions of woodhorse trainwreck which is apparently a trainwreck arcata-32 cut x afghani selectively bred through so many generations then back crossed to the original mother produces genuine trainwreck buds and can be mistaken for the clone right down to the floppy ass stems and carmalized onion smell. Again from what I've read :P

Magash has hands on experience which is far more valuable than any sort of theoretical experience. I'm not saying his method isn't the right way I just want to investigate for the most successful methods to produce a true seed line from clone.


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269340 - 08/23/09 04:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

He's right on this what I'm saying is to backcross to the original mother till the donating father plants genes are pretty much gone. Once this has been done then start kicking in his method. Which is pretty much what he says
Quote:

So what does backcrossing do?
It creates a population that has a great deal of the same genes as the mother clone. From this population, if enough plants are grown, individuals can be chosen that have all the same traits as the mother, for use in creating offspring that are similar (the same maybe) as the original clone.





His or anybody's method will be much easier if you have seeds with 97% of the donating mothers genes to start with rather than having 33% of the donating father plants genes in the pool still. :wink:


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269346 - 08/23/09 05:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Word that's what I thought, selection would be needed none the less. I wonder if he's good at what he says he does. He's the most popular breeder on thcfarm.

He's well known for his affiliation with Reservoir, Capt Krip, etc. He apparently hates Reservoir with a passion, and Capt Krip he was breeding partners with along with OG Raskal.

I've been hearing Dr Green Thumb produces good representations also.


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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269419 - 08/23/09 01:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

what books would you recommend if one had an irresistible desire to get into breeding?


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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269422 - 08/23/09 01:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

He he he.....Yeah I've know him for years and he knows his shit. You have Res and his group of friends or his click so to say and you have Breeders Steve and his click and his group of friends which Chimera is a part of along with DJ Short. You'll find that those guys work together a lot. The two groups don't mix well.

Personally I like the work from Breeder Steve's crew the best.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269437 - 08/23/09 02:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for your explanations once again Magash.

who is breeder steves crew? i know he's worked with dj but chimera talks shit about him on icmag. maybe they just had a falling out?

chimera talks about how he takes credit for chimera's ideas like the original research on housing embryo's to make seed clones.

So far Reservoir's gear has just been pheno parties and nanner throwers for me, and everyone says that his shit is by far sub par to the clones.

Swerve also says ECSD which Rez works isn't the original sour diesel and that it's (MSS x Chem x NL ) x Hawaiian DNL or somehting like that and original diesel is minus what isn't in brackets.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Mushr00m_Man]
    #269439 - 08/23/09 02:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mushr00m_Man said:
what books would you recommend if one had an irresistible desire to get into breeding?




Cannabis breeding or general breeding?

If you're just talking cannabis breeding you should read about mendellian genetics although they are only so useful, basic botany (structure of plants), then articles and what not from GOOD breeders like DJ shorts and chimera.

You should have a grasp on horticulture and botany and be very scientific about your crosses and selection of offspring. Following traits and such.  I assure you that even if it sounds silly the most important thing has to be documentation or accounting for all of your work as you would in a scientific experiment.

Breeding shouldn't be mistaken for pollen chucking though, if you just want to unite the craziest weed you can get your hands on or have one male and make a ton of seeds from many females... there isnt much need of understanding. The breeding you should learn something about is more like accounting and assigning generations to acquire as many desirable traits as possible in the final seed generation. This is true even if you want to produce elite clones/mothers as it all comes from a seed.

A motto you should take to heart "Select the best reject the rest" A law in breeding is the next generation should always display more desirable traits as the last. I was trying to recall the quote last night while reading and I made up my own "Keep the best and cull the rest" It's better for stoners, no 5 letter words.

I will pm you with some articles.


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: captain.koons]
    #269510 - 08/23/09 06:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

captain.koons said:
Thanks for your explanations once again Magash.

who is breeder Steve's crew? i know he's worked with DJ but chimera talks shit about him on icmag. maybe they just had a falling out?

chimera talks about how he takes credit for chimera's ideas like the original research on housing embryo's to make seed clones.

So far Reservoir's gear has just been pheno parties and nanner throwers for me, and everyone says that his shit is by far sub par to the clones.

Swerve also says ECSD which Rez works isn't the original sour diesel and that it's (MSS x Chem x NL ) x Hawaiian DNL or somehting like that and original diesel is minus what isn't in brackets.




Yeah both Steve and Chimera can be clowns. Chimera is right about Steve getting the idea for the seed clones from him but it may have to do something to do with the fact that Steve is actually getting something done with em. He also doesn't mention that he got the idea from the cucumber industry.

Yeah I think Res may be a little of a pollen chucker. People do nothing but butch about his gear. I've grown out some with good results but to be honest I don't think sour D ibl was his work.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: anyone grow out cali connection gear? aka breeder swerve [Re: Magash]
    #269519 - 08/23/09 07:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Who knows. Chimera and Steve both have good schwagger and that's all I care about. It's super funny to read about all the drama between breeders though.

I wonder about a lot of accusations. Rez claims that Reeferman stole his Williams Wonder, Sour Diesels, etc. As far as I can tell that story checks out though. Rez further claims that Reeferman was hired by Marc Emery to produce all of his f2 rip offs which he sold as genuine breeder packs. I haven't grown out Reeferman gear but he seems to be the real deal.


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