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OfflineRockahaus
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Best LED light for 4x4 tent
    #770416 - 02/27/15 05:48 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Hello everyone. I have grown a couple of times with some T5's,cheap nutes, and miracle grow soil, but I am ready to start a grow room and make a real go of it this time. I just got a 4x4 gorilla tent and have been researching LEDs for about a month and I'm still confused about what is the best for the money. At this point I think this is the one I want to get http://spectrumkingled.com/ The 400 series. Has anyone used this light or can recommend a good one for about a grand or less?


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus] * 1
    #770424 - 02/27/15 08:38 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

We have another mod named phychotron who you should ask this of or just wait cause when he sees this he'll answer. :wink:

He's the resident LED master :thumbup:


:happyweed:


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #770444 - 02/28/15 04:05 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

It's funny you should say that Magash. I was sent here from another group and that told me to talk to him also. He also said phychotron was the man.


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Offlinebudgrowerwannabe
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #770448 - 02/28/15 04:59 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Wow that light is 1000 bucks lol holly shit ! I have really been lookin into leds myself. I have been growin under hps since I started now i want to see how leds work? See if i get the same yeild an all.


I have watched this light on youtube is suppost to be the beesknees !! But shit there just selling there gear.


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InvisibleChemical Addiction
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: budgrowerwannabe]
    #770451 - 02/28/15 05:57 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I believe phychotron recommends Advanced LED lights in other posts. I've looked at the lights but they are pretty expensive but would be nice to keep down on heat.

If I got one (for myself not a tent)I would get the 400w Diamond Series (3W bulbs) and supplement with 2 X two bulb t5 CFls on either side.

One of my 600W HID lights went out and i'm using one of the 4ft T5's for my veg ATM. Hoping it will be good enough since I cant afford two quality led lights right now.

Edit: Decided to get DS XTE 400 (5W bulbs). My 1000w HPS is way too hot also kinda bulky, hoping this plus a couple single bulb T5 cfl will be good enough. Good luck with your decision Rockahaus


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Edited by Chemical Addiction (02/28/15 08:51 PM)


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: budgrowerwannabe]
    #770462 - 02/28/15 08:32 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

There isn't much information on Spectrum King other than their videos, and that makes me worried a bit. But the plants look so good and the buds were sweet and tight. His harvest video showed 1000hps was better yield, but his was more potent. I do like that their heat sink is enough to keep the light cool (He used a heat meter on light to show temp)and they do not use fans since I've read horror stories about them burning out and killing the light or being super loud. and they use Cree bulbs which are supposed to be the best. I also heard you get what you pay for and anything under a grand or two isn't worth it. Who knows until you try.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #770482 - 02/28/15 09:56 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I've heard nothing but great things out of Advance LEDs, and Cali lightworks.


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Stoneth]
    #770490 - 02/28/15 10:48 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you Stoneth. I've looked at advanced, but not cali, so I'll check them out now. Thanks again


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Offlinemurrtheblur
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #770535 - 03/01/15 04:46 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I have 2 lights from advanced led and can only say good things about the results I picked up a diamond series 400 just before the xte series came out and it's been a pretty good light and my veg light from them just arrived yesterday so no results from it but it's giving good coverage for my space at the moment and is quite blue, but for a 4x4 the xte 300 could give you some decent results if you're going to leave some space for airflow and moving around the edges of the tent, I was running my ds400 in a 4x8 with a 1000 watt hps and using about 4x6 of the space. I did loose some of my diodes on that light and I just dropped them an email about it and there going to take care of it when I have the time to give up my light which will be when I pick up another one from them. I'd recommend advanced led but i haven't worked with any other companies light either
hope that helpful in some way
~blur~


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: murrtheblur]
    #770633 - 03/01/15 08:21 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Spectrum king is a hard one because its a different style light. It appears to be very focused and very powerful. To the point that i've internet 'heard' they will burn your plants at 2 feet. It seems like more of a commercial/green house solution where you don't have the lights too close to the plants.

It has some cool features like being water proof, but I don't think it's for the tent growing market.

I can't make an opinion on it until I see some results.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #770653 - 03/02/15 12:41 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

The light I like right now is the XML650 that Advanced LED. Not currently for sale, but should be within the month or so. It's going to cost $1600 and they said it would cover a 5x5. I emailed them and they said that two of the new XTE400's ($2400 for both) would equal one XML650. They have different configurations of diodes, 5w XTE vs 10w XML. As much as I like the XTE400, I'm going to have to go with the XML650 next. Its two thirds the price to cover about the same area. A little less versatile, but the thing is pretty sweet.

They just started offering the lifetime warranty on the new fixtures, they will send you parts as long as they are in business. Because they're modular its going to be easy to fix and the replacement parts are relatively cheap.


I just had my DS400 burn out a bank of diodes 2.5 years into warranty. They sent the FedEx guy with the label, all I had to do was box it up and open the door and hand it to him. I had an older design from their first manufacturer they had problems with and this one only had a few patches of heat sink under the fans. They ended up replacing the whole light board and heat sink so that its full size. Basically giving me a whole new light right before my warranty ended. I asked how much for the repairs after warranty and he said anywhere between $65 and $650, and that's where he's going in and soldering in new diodes--no guarantee the diode right next to the one he just replaced isn't going to go out soon. 

That's the problem with being non-modular. The Diamond Series is a good light, it produces really good bud, but the thing is not sustainable. No matter what LED you end up getting, make sure it is modular and easy to repair.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #770661 - 03/02/15 02:14 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks phychotronM

It sounds really good, but it would take me forever to save up that much money for the XML650. I'm having a hard time coming up with a grand. But I know the light is the most important part, so I want to get the best I can afford. It's just so hard because everyone says they are the best and I've heard not all specs listed are true on some sites.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #770679 - 03/02/15 09:31 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I know its tough finding that fixture/company to invest money in, but it really does help to get the higher end stuff. I was talking about the Mars 2 fixture on ICMAG recently and someone who has never used one was all defending them about how they're not that bad, blah blah blah, but when I pointed out that after 12 inches it no longer has enough PAR light to flower cannabis properly (@700 µmol for lowest branches)  the thread just sorta died. I've never used one either, but I knew from the go they were garbage, then my friend's room mate got two and I was convinced.

And the mars 2 did sort of impress me with its heat sink, one of the most noticeable features (finned aluminum being kinda rare on those cheapies) but that's the deceptive part. It gives the illusion of quality. They even claim "5w diodes" but the whole fixture runs an average of 2.25w (180w/80 diodes) when you include fans, so its actually less without cooling. To compare, Advanced LED is running their 5w Cree diodes at 3.9w each--mars is only 57% of the wattage. My Diamond Series with 3w diodes are running at 1.95 with cooling.

With Advanced LED, sure they're still importing the lights from China, but I tell people they NEED to pay one of those types of companies that are actively developing the lights to work for our cause. They are trying to push the light to the limit, unlike other companies that really are just re-sellers of generic fixtures--Like GrowBlu (works good but too focused and overpriced for its efficiency) selling a common fixture that they most likely had no part in developing.

Advanced LED just built a machine/robot that will test the par data on individual diodes so that they can combine the best in the future generations. They've also tested a bunch of spectrum before going with their new series of lights

So here is the XML350 for $1000 (they claimed in an email will outperform a new XTE400 by about 10%)that they say will cover a 4x4 (I think that's pushing it, but again I've never used one personally). I would suggest holding out for the XML650 and spending a bit of extra cash just to get the added kick. There are more than double the amount of 10w Cree diodes on there--9 modules and (10) 10w-diodes on the XML350 vs 16 modules and (24) 10w Cree's on the XML650.

Check out the un boxing of one of the first one's.

I was looking for other LED companies to invest in (got a GrowBlu because it was modular) but Advanced put an end to that search when they started coming out with new lights. They really are working on developing the lights and making it as good as possible. If they were just a generic reseller I'd say you'd be fine rolling the dice with anyone of those companies but they offer more to their lights than just covering the 3yr warranty period other companies do.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


Edited by phychotron (03/02/15 09:35 AM)


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #770777 - 03/03/15 07:45 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks again. You have some good info. I just can't afford the XML650. It will take me a year to get that much money. But the XML350 looks good. The only reason I'm still leaning toward Spectrum King 400 series is they completed Cree’s Thermal, Electrical, Mechanical, Photometric and Optical (TEMPO) testing process and list Cree's logo on their page whereas Advanced doesn't list anything about them. Advanced has a BUNCH of fans on their lights, and I was told the better lights do not need fans. And Full spectrum light that covers all spectrums is better than a mix of lights that only do a few spectrums. At least I'm down to these two lights.


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #770788 - 03/03/15 11:44 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

If you get one I'd love to see the thing in action, are you planning on doing any grow logs or anything like that?


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #770792 - 03/03/15 12:06 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I'm going to try to do a grow log and take pics. Never posted to youtube. I'm sure it can't be to hard though. I know for the first grow, I'm just going to let things grow and see what happens. I plan on using SubCool's supersoil recipe only. See if it really works with just adding water. Depending on what happens, I'll adjust for the subsequent grows.


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771444 - 03/09/15 11:55 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

The spectrum king might be a decent option provided you have the lamp 2-3 feet above the canopy... although 25 watts per foot is a bit on the light side. I will say though that it's comparable to other offerings as far as price goes. The main consideration if you're okay with the wattage is whether the lamp is quality, and that's something I can't comment on.

Another forum I frequent raves about Area51 lamps, also uses Cree emitters and assembly in the states. Two of their 190s (which I think they're out of at the moment) would be about the same cost and would provide a better footprint while getting the lamps closer to the canopy.

Although... even the panel LEDs available on the market tend to provide conical coverage meaning the space below the lamp receives much more light than the space to the side. It's kinda irksome because the main potential advantage of LED over HPS currently is the ability to spread the emitters out and provide even coverage over the entire grow space. (LED and HPS are neck and neck in efficiency at the moment, though that will be changing in the next couple years) Retail LED lamps tend to be compact because it's less expensive to build them that way. The retail LED grow light market is difficult because they tend to push the emitters hard and use cheaper parts. One of the cool things about LED is that the efficiency goes up the softer you drive them.

My solution was to build my own lamps. I've been using under driven VERO COBs cooled with radial heatsinks mounted to aluminum frames, no fans. I just recently completed a 350 watt lamp for a 2x4 tent providing about 140 LPW. It provides about 43 watts per foot and got 1.2 GPW (actual wattage) on the first run (1.35 GPW by lamp output). The parts for the lamp ran about $800, so for $1600 you could build a lamp that would likely yield almost 2 lbs in that 4x4 tent from 700 watts. You would need to spend at least $2000 for the same results with retail lamps. For the same cost as that Spectrum King you could DIY a 525 watt lamp that would provide about 33 watts per foot over every foot in your tent.

So something like that might be worth considering. DIY LED can seem daunting, but with the advent of COBs the workload is dramatically reduced... and using Bridgelux Vero series with molex connectors mean no soldering whatsoever. Drill, hacksaw, screwdriver, wire stripper/pliers, tap bit and handle and you're in business, although I would highly recommend a small drill press which can be bought for under $100.

There is an even cheaper way to go about things, and that's DIYing a lamp with fans. I was attracted to the fanless option and it still came out less than retail so I was sold. Having not priced things out for fan cooled DIY LEDs I can't really comment on how much cheaper it would be.

I don't usually post here but I'll check back and if you're interested in the DIY option I will be glad to provide more info if you like.


Edited by Rahz (03/10/15 12:17 AM)


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771471 - 03/10/15 05:55 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks Rahz,

I've heard COBs are not as efficient by as much as 50% or more over top bin lights. Never been that good at DIY. Especially with electricity. I'll check out Area51 again. I want to stay with Cree full spectrum bulbs since most people say they are the best. I hate spending this much on something I'm not sure about.


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771512 - 03/10/15 01:05 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

If you're not into DIY, fair enough. I'm not much of an electrician either. Took me several weeks of research and asking lots of questions before I felt confident enough to start pricing parts.

As far as efficiency, it's true COBs were less efficient when they were first introduced but that margin has disappeared. My lamp is running about 140 LPW and the yield per watt speaks for itself... but datasheets for comparison are available for all the emitters in the Cree and Bridgelux lineup.

I've also heard good things about Advanced LED, and another company called Apachetech (though those are a bit pricey).


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771535 - 03/10/15 04:55 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I just figured I couldn't build a better light than an engineer that works with leds all the time. I would love to save some money though.


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771573 - 03/10/15 09:09 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

It's just providing a current to an emitter and keeping it cool.

The Vero datasheets show the LPW for various drive currents.

For non-typical currents the datasheets have charts, one showing current -vs- voltage. It can be used to find the voltage for a particular current. Voltage X current = watts. Another chart shows luminous flux (lumens) as a percentage of the standard currents output -vs- current. Standard output X (percentage) = lumens @ your chosen drive current. Standard output X (the percentage) / watts = LPW.

Using that info I can see that a Vero 29 wired to a 700mA driver will use about 25-26 watts and produce 140-142 lumens per watt.

From there you just need a way to keep it cool. You can get more complex wiring up the emitters in series or in parallel, but you can also just buy a power supply for each emitter like I did. Emitters are wired to the power supplies, power supplies are wired to a positive and negative terminal, terminals are wired to a power cord. Plug it in and it is on. People have been using CPU coolers and getting really good results. My plan was to use passive cooling so I took a chance on cheap radial heat sinks I found on ebay that were advertised as 50 watt heatsinks. My first lamp I paired them up with Vero 18 pushing 31 watts. They ran a little hot so I use a couple fans blowing air across the lamp and they stay reasonably cool. That lamp has produced 1.1 GPW. The new lamp uses the same heatsinks but I'm only driving the Vero 29s at 25 watts and the heatsinks stay nice and cool without fans and has produced 1.2 GPW.

It hasn't been an exact science for me since I haven't been measuring temps with a temperature probe. Without knowing the exact temp of the thermal junction it's not possible to know the exact LPW the emitter is putting out. 140 LPW is probably a good guess for my new lamp. At any rate, 1.2 GPW is the figure I like and makes me feel like I built a lamp that out produces retail offerings of any brand. Engineers can build lamps, but they're also trying to build something as cheaply as possible and tack on as much profit as they can. I'm getting more output for the money and the light takes up the whole tent rather than a small group of emitters hanging in the center. This lamp sits about 6 inches above the canopy during flower.





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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771618 - 03/11/15 07:36 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, that is a wild looking light. It looks like you used all white lights too. I may be over thinking it, just seems real confusing to know you are getting the right spectrum of light. like do you really need uv and ir, or even green light which I think Blackdog is using for photosynthesis.


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771652 - 03/11/15 10:00 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

That is pretty sweet looking for a home made fixture. Do you have any photos of it in action?


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771657 - 03/11/15 01:02 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rockahaus said:
Dude, that is a wild looking light. It looks like you used all white lights too. I may be over thinking it, just seems real confusing to know you are getting the right spectrum of light. like do you really need uv and ir, or even green light which I think Blackdog is using for photosynthesis.




There is some science behind uv and ir supplements, but it's also a flashy selling point. To keep things in perspective you can see the spectrum distribution for white emitters on the datasheets. Compare that to a spectrum distribution chart for HPS. White LEDs are obviously superior to HPS with or without supplements.

I used all 3000K emitters on that lamp. Plenty of blue for veg.


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771659 - 03/11/15 01:06 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

phychotron said:
That is pretty sweet looking for a home made fixture. Do you have any photos of it in action?




Sorry I do not, but it was pretty.


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OfflineRockahaus
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771662 - 03/11/15 01:22 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I have about 2 more months before i'll be able to get a light,and you got me thinking about a diy light. I still heard the parts are pretty expensive just by themselves. At least for good LEDs. Any good links to look at first?


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771668 - 03/11/15 02:42 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Bridgelux emitters are a little less expensive than Cree. The Cree can run a little more efficient, so you could get by with fewer emitters nullifying the price difference. I'm specifically referring to Bridgelux Vero29 and Cree 3070.

For a general price gauge, here are the parts I used:

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=BXRC-30E10K0-L-03&vendor=976

http://www.powergatellc.com/mean-well-plm-40-power-supply.html

The Heatsinks can be found on ebay for $12-13 (make offer) if you do a search for "50 watt led heat sink" They may arrive needing some sanding.

So that's 28+16+12 ($56) for each unit. I used 14, plus the cost of hardware: aluminum frame, nuts, bolts, washers, screws, terminal posts, wire, power cord, thermal paste, which is around $100.

It's the expensive way to DIY LED (my lamp was about $900). It can be much cheaper if you use fans.

Vero29 @ 1.05A = 39 watts, 5160 lumens, 132 LPW paired with a CPU cooler would run really cool. 16 of those in a grid would be 1 emitter over every foot of space in a 4x4 tent, 82,500 lumens total. The cost for it assuming the CPU cooler was about the same price as the passive heat sinks I used would be about $1000-1100. You could of course choose to use less emitters and run them harder. The Vero 29 running at recommend specs (2100mA) is an 80 watt unit. 9 of them in a grid would supply 720 watts at about 120 LPW for a cost of maybe $700!

For a space that size, a single lamp probably isn't the best idea, though the 9 emitter configuration over a 4x4 would weigh less than my lamp. For a 16 emitter setup, 4 strip lamps with 4 emitters @39 watts might make sense. Find the right power supply for the fans and you could wire them in series, or you could create an air conduit for the heat sinks and you might get by with a single beefy fan for each lamp (1 fan for each 4 emitters) though there would be some guess work involved in that setup. The advantage to using CPU coolers for each emitter is that it has been done many times and there are plenty of examples.

Or... you could spend the extra money and build two of the passive 2x4 units similar to mine. It would be 700 watts and cost around $1700-1800.

As you can see, there are lots of design considerations. Spending less entails getting more creative and complex... but you don't need to be a engineer to figure it out.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771682 - 03/11/15 05:28 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I ordered a few LED's and switches for a flashlight project last night and this thread got me thinking about getting a fixture of my own started. I'm thinking about getting copper heat sink though. Then maybe putting it in a large piece of PVC and have air channel through that, although I would prefer passive cooling.

Not sure I'd go with the larger watt diodes, maybe sticking with 10w maximum to spread the light out as much as possible over the canopy.  I'm thinking two or three skinny bars that are about 42" long each, separated evenly and mounted as one fixture.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771696 - 03/11/15 08:03 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Not sure I'd go with the larger watt diodes, maybe sticking with 10w maximum to spread the light out as much as possible over the canopy.




I agree with that principal. Vero 10s are 9 watt units at nominal current (4.4 watts and 132 LPW at 175mA) and cost less than $5 so I'm sure something interesting could be done with them wired in series. :thumbup:

Larger COBs do have advantages though, efficiency for one if you were trying to reach 140-150 LPW, though 130 LPW is nothing to shake a stick at. Also to be taken into consideration is that COBs are naturally wide angle emitters. The datasheets for a particular emitter will have an angle -vs- light intensity chart that can help in planning emitter spacing.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771711 - 03/11/15 08:19 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

i suggest a 24" T5 lighting...

oh shit! im selling a t5 fixture.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771712 - 03/11/15 08:20 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

There is a lot to consider. I'm broke, so I don't want to spend a lot of money, but I know I need to if I want good yields though. I'm going to start checking out the Cree lights now.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771728 - 03/12/15 12:34 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rockahaus said:
There is a lot to consider. I'm broke, so I don't want to spend a lot of money, but I know I need to if I want good yields though. I'm going to start checking out the Cree lights now.




You're hurting for money and you don't want to spend a lot of cash LED's are the way of the future but still aren't close to being ready to take over HID lights yet.

Why aren't you using HID lights till you can afford decent LED lights? I mean you're talking about making a system and crap wiring this and that. 

Quote:

Hello everyone. I have grown a couple of times with some T5's,cheap nutes, and miracle grow soil,




You kept it simple before why not now?

Half the time you see post on youtube showing "this yadda  yadda yadda light out does a 600 watt HPS and then there are a ton of post saying they are full of shit or you find out that the post was put up by the light maker and made to look like a review. (This trick is huge with the LED guys)

I want to see a nice simple LED set up that can do this

Over (well over) 4 lbs in a 4x8 space. I want to see LED's do it. Dense bud even at the bottom.

Hell I'd be even happy to see them do this


I'm not trying to knock LED light but the name of this thread should be How to make setting up a garden a complete pain in the ass.

:happyweed:


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #771730 - 03/12/15 02:13 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Ignorance is bliss.. I love how HPS growers go around pretending you can't get dense bud with LED. :lol:


Lets see some side by sides of an HPS beating LED in THC and terpene production



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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #771732 - 03/12/15 02:26 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

There are a lot of shoddy companies out there but DIY avoids that along with the premiums that come from buying from a company that sells quality products. As I said, 1.35 GWP from a 350 watt lamp in a 2x4 tent equals your 4 lbs in a 4x8. That I don't have pics might bother you, but 140 LPW is 140 LPW and can be verified by looking at the datasheets for the emitters I used. There's a bit of a learning curve in understanding them, but it's not that difficult. I'm driving the Vero 29s at 700mA.

For non-typical currents the datasheets have charts, one showing current -vs- voltage. It can be used to find the voltage for a particular current. Voltage X current = watts. Another chart shows luminous flux (lumens) as a percentage of the standard currents output -vs- current. Standard output X (percentage) = lumens @ your chosen drive current. Standard output X (the percentage) / watts = LPW.

http://www.bridgelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/DS33%C2%A0Bridgelux-Vero%C2%A029%C2%A0LED-Array-Data-Sheet%C2%A02014.02.03.pdf

Not having a lot of money to spend up front, a 600 or 1000 watt HPS might be the smart thing to do in a 4x4, but I do think a 600 watt DIY LED lamp in that space would pull 2 lbs. and as I mentioned and provided some details for, I could build that lamp for about $700.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771733 - 03/12/15 02:38 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I've heard Apache Tech is the bomb, but $2500 for the lamp? :eek:

How about DIY for $700? Or $1800 for the fanless version. I actually have two fanless lamps now, the 350 and a 720 watt I first built. 17Oz and 28Oz last two harvests. Almost 3 lbs. from 1070 watts.

And yea, I make left hand finger hash handling stems. :hehehe:


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771734 - 03/12/15 04:02 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

phychotron said:
Ignorance is bliss.. I love how HPS growers go around pretending you can't get dense bud with LED. :lol:


Lets see some side by sides of an HPS beating LED in THC and terpene production








lol.....I've seen this exact load of bullshit before and when tested between many strains the results went back and fourth between the types of lights and you know it. You just tried to pull a fast one on me.

I don't want to see grow shop or light company videos 

and any light can grow dense nugs if the plants are short and they must have been cause this guy only got 677 grams from a 1000watt light.

I put up a pic in this post of a plant that had well over 200 grams dry on it and there were 6 under 1 1000 watt light (I've done 8 before). Show me some real growers is what I'm saying.

And you also know that UV light is the big thing with terpene production. The guy should use a bulb that probably wasn't made for street lights and use a grow bulb with a little uv added and going by his yield some added blue light.

Show me some real gardens. Some real growers not bullshit tents in bedrooms. Show me one guy who went to the store bought a LED light went home and had killer production and no problems.

Like I said I think LED is the way of the future and it will be used by everybody but right now it's a expensive clown show. I'm also not saying there isn't killer LED lights out there but going just by what you say over and over and over and over again there few and far between. (I actually base the little I know about these lights on your posts)


and Tron can you answer me a question. (I'm not being a smart ass either)

What is it about those damn LED's that overheats? I thought one of the big selling points is that they don't give off heat. My friend had a panel go out for the 1000th time and he fucking lost it and gave me all this LED stuff I have sitting right here but it's a few years old. I got a bunch (and I mean a bunch) of these UFO's that my fly traps seem to love but these lights that are on panels he says suck cause of heat or something so I've never got around to using those.

Now I have a huge interest in these lights but I go by what I see with my eyes not videos by fuck knows who. I come from a area that well over 75% of the population is growers. The drug stores sell bud trimmers. I've seen a ton of grows go from HID to LED only to go back again. I've also seen LED guys go to HID and they almost never go back to the LED's.

Now Harry was suppose to set me up with some big ole monster wattage LEDs that he works with and was convinced would change my mind but he went and vanished on us.

:happyweed:

P.S. Are us two and Stone the only mods now?


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771735 - 03/12/15 04:09 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't realize it was that expensive and at that price I'd start to build my own.

With home made LED it seems like the best idea is to invest in a good/oversize heat sink and tap it out to receive certain size diodes, like the 20mm MCPCB some diodes are mounted on. Then as time goes on you can just unscrew and replace with newer diodes and drivers as technology improves.  Once you understand the basics of driving the diodes you should be able to replace and upgrade relatively easily. But the part that should never break or need replacing would be the heat sink. I think passive cooling is the way to go, but its not cost effective for companies to sell you that huge of a block of aluminum, not in today's disposable society.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #771736 - 03/12/15 04:27 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I've tried to explain the heat concept before, but here goes:

Infra red light, emitted in excess by an HID bulb, shines on every surface and is absorbed by everything it touches, as heat. It cannot be cooled before it strikes a surface, it must hit the plant, be absorbed as heat, then shed into the air. Your HID bulbs require a cooler air temperature for plants because it needs to drive heat from hot(plant) to cold(air) via temperature differential. I'm sure you understand that the larger the difference, the faster the rate.

That IR radiation is also hitting every surface that receives light, tent, equipment, etc. which needs to be cooled to keep the air cool. IR is also hitting your thc molecules. notice the HPS has a higher delta-9 (activated) THC %.

With LED the heat is absorbed into a heat sink then transferred to the air and vented out the top. If you leave it sealed in a tent that shit will heat up, no doubt. But considerably less than a sealed HID tent. I thought my friends HID tent was hot, then I realized his ballast was outside the tent and hot as fuck as well. LED's just don't get the equipment itself that hot. 

If your LED fixtures don't have an adequate heat sink they're going to run the diodes too hot and burn up. Its like my CPU. I had an OEM intel heat sink on my i5 quad core-- encoding an album to MP3's would heat my CPU up to 99C and shut down. Got a new cooler and can't get that bitch past 50C no matter what I do.

Do any of those UFO's have a finned aluminum heat sink or just a flat shit sheet?


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“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


Edited by phychotron (03/12/15 04:30 AM)


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #771737 - 03/12/15 04:40 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)


Here's a larger comparison using the style light I imagine when building an LED.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #771741 - 03/12/15 06:29 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

The main reason for going with LED is I'm a disabled vet on disability and have a fixed income. I have to keep my monthly bills low. My electric bill gets up to $250 - $300 a month just running A/C in the summer not growing anything. Between the watts HPS pull and the added A/C needed, it would just cost to much month to month. At this moment, I'm getting paid to go to school, and I'm using that money to pay for the light and all the other equipment I need while I have extra monthly income. Just got my tent yesterday, so I'm going to start some seeds soon.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771747 - 03/12/15 08:18 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Do any of those UFO's have a finned aluminum heat sink or just a flat shit sheet?




There finned, and there is something about the light that is suppose to be better then the older ones. My friend is all into LED or he was and these were the only ones he didn't have some kind of problem with.

:happyweed:


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #771764 - 03/12/15 11:21 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Do you have a name or a brand or just straight up generic?


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
    #771799 - 03/12/15 05:46 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rockahaus said:
The main reason for going with LED is I'm a disabled vet on disability and have a fixed income. I have to keep my monthly bills low. My electric bill gets up to $250 - $300 a month just running A/C in the summer not growing anything. Between the watts HPS pull and the added A/C needed, it would just cost to much month to month. At this moment, I'm getting paid to go to school, and I'm using that money to pay for the light and all the other equipment I need while I have extra monthly income. Just got my tent yesterday, so I'm going to start some seeds soon.




The problem with the electric bill is that it goes up really fast after you use a set amount of electricity. Here its a second price tier after 600kwh, third after 1200, then I think the next one is only at 1500, half the power of previous tiers.  My electricity ranges from 90 to 200 depending on what appliances I use. About $60 on the garden per month if I stay within the lower tiers but more if I'm using more juice around the house, as I assume the garden consumes the most costly electricity. So I'd say about $90 when in the tier that's close to 50% more per kw-h.

And what it really comes down to is if I remember to turn the sleep timer on the monitor before I go to bed. A 60" plasma TV sucks down the juice, but also heats the apartment in the winter. You might need to launch a campaign around the house to eliminate all things non essential--unplugging unused appliances, keeping lights off or on timers, always turn the TV off when your not watching it, lower the temperature of your water heater in the summer, etc... you'd be surprised how much you can shave off your bill sometimes.


I'll let the garden get to over 100 in the summer with no extra cooling other than keeping the fan on high. Like I mentioned above you have a lot less thermal energy to shed from the plant leaf. I originally got the AC for those hot days but said fuck it its better to cool my room when its 95-100 degrees out, they're plants, they could take it in the wild when its that hot. I have moderately cool summers but its known for some pretty wicked heat waves. If they lasted longer than two weeks I'd consider some sort of cooling option but the plants can take it if your set up for good air exchange.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771815 - 03/12/15 06:57 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

For what its worth I have a kessil H380 and its growing my cacti as well as other plants in my grow tent!!



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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
    #771817 - 03/12/15 07:15 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

This photo somewhat shows how the heat varies. Sorry if it came from an LED vendor, but I can attest to the fact that this is no exaggeration. With LED the heat never has to interact with the plant/environment in the same way an HPS does. That is why it is fundamentally better for the plant. It is much gentler on the plant to apply just the required energy than it is to give an excess of non-usable energy.



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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: newbie2shoes]
    #771821 - 03/12/15 07:17 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

newbie2shoes said:
For what its worth I have a kessil H380 and its growing my cacti as well as other plants in my grow tent!!







Kessil seems like a decent way to spend a lot of money on a small area. How much did you spend and how much area does it cover?


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771896 - 03/13/15 03:35 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

phychotron said:

Kessil seems like a decent way to spend a lot of money on a small area. How much did you spend and how much area does it cover?




$275 on the light and my tent is 2.5 W X 1.5 D X 3 H that's in feet. For the size, light output and being switchable it was what fit MY needs.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: newbie2shoes]
    #771901 - 03/13/15 05:31 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Finding that perfect LED for your needs is what is critical. Its one of the reason's you can't just universally recommend a brand or fixture.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #771932 - 03/13/15 11:02 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

phychotron said:
Finding that perfect LED for your needs is what is critical. Its one of the reason's you can't just universally recommend a brand or fixture.




Totally agree!!! Im looking to add 2 H150s to this setup. I've noticed on most forums the HPS guys love to bash on LEDs which I don't know why?! Its all about the best light for your needs!!!

I like to call my get-up a micro grow.

It uses 125 watts (kill-a-watt P3) total which includes:
the 3 LEDs
2 monster surge protectors
what is said to be 100 cfm 4" fan (doesn't actually move 100 cfms)

3.75 SQ FT. floor space
11.2 Cu. Ft. total grow area


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: newbie2shoes]
    #771946 - 03/13/15 12:49 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

The small grows tend to benefit the most from LED. Too small for HID, too important to use CFL (and less heat).  What are those other LED's your using? I burned my kill-a-watt up leaving it plugged in to try and record how many kw-h it used over an entire grow (over 1000w or so). Best to capture it over the course of a 24 hour period and calculate your usage by number of days in flower.

HID'ers like to bash LED because the early stuff got a lot of people pissed off. They still advertise in the same way and a lot of the same cheap stuff still popular amongst newbs. The stuff you find at the hydro stores they have to frequent to get their bulbs don't stock shit worth of anything decent usually--generic with a sticker. Then people return them and they don't want to sell them.

HID growers tend to get the cheaper LED's and don't change the variables in the garden and expect it to perform the same way as the HID based garden. Its hard to realize that their entire system is based around the bulb and cooling the plants. There is so much conventional knowledge about these that people don't want to give up the math and everything they know--stuck on coverage area per light and whatnot. New things tend to scare people.

Then again, haters gonna hate...


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
    #772125 - 03/14/15 07:29 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

One is a cheap blue and white LED from ebay that I had on my saltwater tank before it crashed (it grew zoas). The other is a mixed spectrum sunshine systems led bulb. Since the kessil was very spot lighty I figured Id add they to my tent versus them sitting in a box :rolleyes: both are in reptile light fixtures I had around as well.

plants seem to grow very well in the tent. When I first started gathering advice about how I would put it together saying I wanted to grow cacti many people were like "CACTI WITH LEDs WONT WORK!!" they have been doing just fine and showing growth comparable if not better than CFL.


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Offlineashfiken
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #772880 - 03/19/15 06:20 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Rahz! Come back and teach me the art of DIY Led.!
My next hobby\project.

Cheers


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OfflineRahz
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: ashfiken]
    #772934 - 03/19/15 10:18 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

I'd be glad to give input on your project, but you'll have to become familiar with COB emitter and constant current driver data sheets so you can decide which emitters to use, how hard to drive them, whether to run drivers for each emitter or run them in series or parallel, then choose appropriate drivers and figure out how to keep it all cool, either passive or with individual fans on a frame, or fewer fans venting an enclosure. Come up with a design and wire it up.

Recommended brands for COBS: Cree (CXA and the new CXB series) and Bridgelux (Vero series) and drivers: Meanwell (they have a comprehensive LED section on their website).

Start a thread and I'll answer whatever questions you have. Look around at other forums too. Some of them have very active DIY LED sections and some of those guys are much more electrically inclined than me.


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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
    #772943 - 03/20/15 05:37 AM (4 years, 4 months ago)

fair enuf. im startin a new thread for ya to come check out>>>> in grow room design.. meanwhile ll familiarize myself to cob emitter and such. id like your specific help on this. the puppy you built looks beautiful. you are shroomery material right? id rather a trusted and capable fellow like you whom is prob more my speed electronics wise help me out ...

thanks hope to speak soon

cheers


--------------------
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I'm from shroomery


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