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 the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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energy or seperatory column(which uses charges so same as energy i guess) to keep them (ions) apart when coming out of solution
Edited by the man (11/24/10 12:32 PM)
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 maryanne3087
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Registered: 06/27/10
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 Re: Dutch Master  [Re: the man]
#500577 - 11/24/10 01:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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POD is one of the factors for elements staying dissolved. IE. calcium nitrate would stay dissolved when RH is over 53%.
Otherwise I don't really know what you're getting at.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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you suggested that calcium woudl stay in solution longer(in dropping humidity) then nitrate
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maryanne3087
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Registered: 06/27/10
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500607 - 11/24/10 03:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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The only instance where I even wrote calcium without nitrate following it in this thread is when discussing calcium being immobile in plant tissues.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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cation is calcium nitrite in anion 
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500655 - 11/24/10 06:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Calcium nitrate is a cation which is my first concern when selecting a nutrient for foliar feeding.
I don't know how if the nitrate component being a anion would affect it's permeability once separated from the calcium in solution. I also don't know what Nitrate's POD is, generally anions have higher POD's but they're not all the same.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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calcium is a cation. nitrate is the anion. together they are a salt once in a solution they seperate into there ions Ie Ca and NO3. read up on how salts dissolve. about ions, cations and anions and not from the marketed bottle. this is basic stuff i am sorry i sort of jacked your thread magash, i was really trying to understand how or if this shit works.
SORRY
Peace
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500754 - 11/25/10 05:34 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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er. I meant to say they Calcium Nitrate has a net positive charge.
Just because a nutrient such as Calcium Nitrate is dissolved in solution doesn't mean the all the nutrients are disassociated into their ionic form.
I don't have a marketed bottle, I order my Calcium Nitrate (amongst other things) from a chemical supply company.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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as a matter of fact it does! hehe. anyway no worries man
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500810 - 11/25/10 12:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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do you know what that actually means?? yes they pass from solids to solution at dif temps. you cant get a solid salt into a plant and they do not form seperate cation and anion portions in solid form, if thats what you think it says your wrong. your basically showing that you read that you know salts seperate into ions, good. have you ever done any of these calculations?? i have, not to brag as im not an expert in chem. anyway, read up.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500860 - 11/25/10 08:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
do you know what that actually means?? yes they pass from solids to solution at dif temps. you cant get a solid salt into a plant and they do not form seperate cation and anion portions in solid form, if thats what you think it says your wrong. your basically showing that you read that you know salts seperate into ions, good. have you ever done any of these calculations?? i have, not to brag as im not an expert in chem. anyway, read up.
The dissociation constant is the equilibrium between the concentrations of dissociated and not dissociated compound.
The calcium nitrate doesn't entirely turn to Ca and No3 in solution there's going to be a balance between Ca and No3 and Calcium Nitrate.
I don't know what the limitations of plants being able to absorb nutrients are but it wouldn't change the fact that there will be Ca, No3, and Calcium nitrate in the solution at once.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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ya so its either a salt of ions.. have you ever made super salty water?? when solid stays in teh bottom new salt is deposited and some is dissolved. thats what that is talking about nothing to do with yoru point. if its in solution it is not a solid man its the seperate ions... calcium is the cation not the molecule jeebus... read
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
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jkell
Midnight toker
Registered: 10/29/10
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500889 - 11/25/10 11:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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I love when intelligent people have arguments 
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500919 - 11/26/10 02:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
Not a problem.
Your wasting your time when you argue with somebody who never thinks they are wrong. 
--------------------
All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
 Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500922 - 11/26/10 02:35 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
ya so its either a salt of ions.. have you ever made super salty water?? when solid stays in teh bottom new salt is deposited and some is dissolved. thats what that is talking about nothing to do with yoru point. if its in solution it is not a solid man its the seperate ions... calcium is the cation not the molecule jeebus... read
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
I said I don't know how well the Nitrate is absorbed.
You seemed to think that disassociation happens to the entire solution and there's no recombination to Calcium Nitrate. I'm not talking about a solid I'm talking about calcium nitrate in the solution that is not disassociated. It has nothing to do with my point it's just something you claimed and I said wasn't true.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#501276 - 11/27/10 07:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Quote:
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
Not a problem.
Your wasting your time when you argue with somebody who never thinks they are wrong.
ya i had that thought before bed last night. pretty much what i thought you would think 
Cheers!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#503061 - 12/04/10 05:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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A paper regarding POD's of various salts.
http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=594_5
Abstract:
Laws of cuticular penetration have been elucidated using calcium and potassium salts. These salts have hydration shells and they penetrate cuticles by diffusing in aqueous pores of molecular dimensions. Cations and anions penetrate in equivalent amounts, because electrical neutrality must be maintained. Penetration is a first order process and salts deposited on the surface of the cuticles disappeared exponentially with time. Velocity of penetration can be best quantified using first order rate constants or half times of penetration. Rates of penetration were greatly affected by humidity over cuticles, and hygroscopicity of salts. Penetration requires dissolution of the salt. This is determined by the point of deliquescence (POD) of the salt and humidity over the salt residue. POD is defined as that humidity over a saturated solution containing solid salt. When humidity is above POD the salt residue on the cuticle dissolves, while below a solid residue is formed and penetration ceases. Hence, salts suitable for foliar nutrition should have a low POD. The following salts meet this criterion: CaCl2 (33%), MgCl2 (33%) K2CO3 (44%), Ca(NO3)2 (56%) and Mg(NO3)2 (56%). Salts having POD’s above 90% (for instance K2HPO4, KH2PO4, KNO3, Ca-acetate, Ca-lactate and Ca-propionate) are not suitable for foliar nutrition, as they penetrate only at a humidity close to 100%. When humidity is above POD rate constants of penetration increased with increasing humidity by about a factor of three and maximum rates were measured at 90 to 100%. This is attributed to swelling of cuticles. The driving force for cuticular penetration is the concentration difference across the CM. Ion concentrations in the apoplast are in the millimolar range while water solubility of inorganic salts can be very high. Fortunately, with the exception of MgCl2 all salts mentioned above having a low POD’s also have high aqueous solubility ranging from 1.25 to 6.60 kg per kg water which shows that driving forces are very large following spray application and evaporation of excess water. Plasticiser and temperature did not affect rates of penetration and spraying should be done in the evening to take advantage of high humidity during the night. The effect of wetting agents and other adjuvants on rates of penetration is discussed.
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maryanne3087
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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"Cations and anions penetrate in equivalent amounts, because electrical neutrality must be maintained."
that was talking about salts having to be able to suck up moisture from the air to dissolve basically so that it can have a longer time to be absorbed and not just sit on the outside. salts in the spray are in solution ie dissolved or into ions. that abstract was written in sort of laymen s terms as it was for a symposium. solid things arent in solution but saturated can form some "crust" or precipitated crystals as ph changes or less water. if you do read any papers (most im sure you dont have access to) on the subject there generally is flaws in there experiments as they have no prevention of the foliar feed to get to the roots.
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