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Offlinespec
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Registered: 10/16/13
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Need help running through operation plans
    #689550 - 10/16/13 10:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Dear Growery,

I've been lurking on this site for a long time, and have been researching a long time. I finally came to a point where I need advice on various aspects of my grow operation plans. If things go along as planned, I will be in a position where my wife and I will be able to pursue cultivation as a full-time occupation under WA state I-502. The plan is to run a functional tier-one production facility making as high a quality product as naturally as possible.

A little background information – I have never cultivated cannabis, but I grew up gardening/landscaping, and spent a good portion of my young adulthood supporting myself through gardening. I have, for many years, studied on cannabis cultivation, as it is something I've always dreamed of doing. I realize that it takes a long period of time to get things stabilized once things are running, and I know it's going to be a LOT of work.

With that in mind, here is the plan:

The space is ideal. It has very high ceilings and stays relatively cool throughout the hottest parts of the year. There may be one week in a year where air conditioning is needed. The following sections cover details of the operation that I may have a question or two about.

Now the Outline:

Mother Plants
5x5 Gorilla Tent
Badboy T5 lighting
5 gallon Smart Pots (ultimately)

Cloning Rack Shelf
Badboy T-5 lighting
Root Riot or coir plugs in trays w/heat pads and humidity domes

Veg Tent
5x5 Gorilla Tent
600 or 1000 watt MH bulb
8” air-cooled sealed reflector
1 gallon Smart Pots

Flower Tents
Six 5x5 Gorilla Tents
4x4 tables with flood trays
1000 watt HPS
8” air-cooled sealed reflectors
2 or 3 gallon Smart Pots (more on this later)


Ventilation

Two 12” ducts will draw air from an adjacent room which is perpetually cool. Perhaps one week a year air conditioning must be run – otherwise it's pretty much anywhere from 55-65 degrees in that area. The plan is to cool 4 of the lamps via one duct, and the remaining 3 through the other.
Each tent will be connected to the main line via a wye branch, down to an 8” duct that cools the reflector hoods. And here are my first big questions:

Should I vent my tents back to the main line which will then vent outside, or should I vent to an independent out vent (another 12” for example)? Should each tent vent independently, or could I run 4 tents in a row chained and not overheat?

The vent out will also be fitted with a carbon filter. Aside from cooling the lights, my intension is to run 4” fans exhausting out of the tents to a main 12” line with a carbon filter as well. Even though this will be completely legitimate, I would like to avoid making the area around the house reek of marijuana.

Strains

Female Seeds C99
Serious Seeds AK-47
Reserva Privada Skywalker Kush
Reserva Privada Sour Kush or Silver LA

The plan is to start with the C99 or AK-47, and upon dialing one in, start working with the next. I would continue this process until I was running all 4 strains. If I wanted to add in the future, I could.

Medium

Soil – FFOF w/perlite, dolomite lime – possibly amended further (ie kelp meal, blood meal)

Methodology

My intension, after working out my genetics and selecting mother plants, is to start a perpetual harvest schedule. I would stagger my tents so that I could schedule a 3 week on, 1 week off harvesting schedule so that I harvest all of my tents within a 2 month period and start back over.*

*Disclaimer – I know plants don't always work this way and there's no way to ABSOLUTELY be sure that I would be able to stick to that schedule. I would just like to avoid a situation where I was harvesting multiple tents in one day or week as there are only 2 of us working the garden area and this would help balance out the load.

The plan is to take rooted clones into a 2 week period in the veg tent in 1 gallon smart pots, giving the plants time to make root mass and harden against the HID lights.

I was thinking 600 watts might be sufficient for a MH light, but perhaps I should consider 1000 watts?

At this point, I am considering transplanting them into 3 gallon smart pots and putting them into their flowering tents. My initial thinking is that since I will be working on 4x4 tables, I could fit 16 plants (give or take depending upon phenotypes) into a 4x4 area in a system similar to SOG. My thinking is that the plants will be alive for a total of 10-11 weeks, and will need roughly 3 gallon containers to reach their maximum potential.

Is 3 gallons too much? Should I flower in 2 gallon containers or even smaller and really focus on fertilizing after that point?

Nutrients

My curiosity is piqued on whether or not 2 gallons of additional soil will be able to last a plant through 8-9 weeks of flowering provided it is buffered with some dolomite lime. I am assuming that when people go with smaller containers, they do so knowing they will eventually start with nutes. In the long run I will probably build a super soil, but for the first little while I know I would feel much more comfortable using a “proven” brand.

My plan is to have Pure Blend Pro Soil on hand as well as some Molasses in case I feel like my plants are lacking as things move along. I have also considered the use of organic teas employing the various ingredients commonly mentioned throughout the flowering process, but am wondering if the soil is built appropriately, should I even consider using things like kelp/alfalfa meal, EWC or seabird guano as a “soil feed” regiment? Will teas give the plants enough by themselves, or will I still need to run a nutrient line like PBP alongside it? Could I skip past nutes altogether and just amend the soil and let it sit for a month? I want to keep it to a certain degree of simplicity when I first start out, so I'm guessing the PBP will be the best bet. Any opinions would be very welcomed.

I already know the water where I will be growing is top notch so I'm not worried about nute lock.

Watering

My plan is to build a manual watering system and have a few 55 gallon reservoirs so that I will have enough water on hand at any given time to feed all my plants. If I do need to feed nutes or teas, I will have a dedicated res and pump/wand just for that purpose which will be cleaned after each use.

In Summary

Those are the biggest questions that I have concerning the main parts of the grow. There's no mention of the cloning process, monitoring equipment, pre-harvest watering, drying, curing etc. because that's all pretty straight forward to me. As I said before, I know that I am going to be a very busy person with all of this, but it will be the ONLY thing I will have to do for work once I get this going. I appreciate any and all feedback and recommendations. But before people start chiming in and telling me I'm crazy for trying to go balls out, realize that it will be several months before I'm actually running at full capacity, and that's if everything goes right.


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: spec]
    #689564 - 10/17/13 12:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I almost pulled a TL;dr, but I noticed you're planning on growing under the I-502 laws.  So, I gotta ask something. Do you already have the permits submitted to the state? If not, I doubt you'll be able to get a license... I'm pretty sure the LCB already has a pretty good idea of who they will be giving permits to to grow commercially... 

Just my first thought. I'm sure I'll have more comments once I've read it through....


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My best run so far


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Offlinespec
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Tank333]
    #689568 - 10/17/13 12:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the reply and the question.

It is my understanding that no applications will be accepted until Nov. 18, so I don't think anyone has put permits forth for approval - unless I've missed some serious wheel-greasing.

There are no limits in place as to how many production licenses will be given, and a license for production can only be refused on a handful of grounds that mostly have to do with financial ambiguity and location. If the state approves it the county you choose to grow in can still reject it.

Yeah - it's a long document. Let me summarize the main questions:

1. For ventilation, would it be better to run 3-4 lights chained into one vent system, or run a main line with a series of wye joints to air-cool the lights?

Further, would it be better to have a dedicated air-line coming in, and vent out to a dedicated line going out, or can I re-connect the vents to a main line that simultaneously brings in and vents air out of the room.

2. I am planning to veg rooted clones in soil for 2 weeks in one gallon smart pots before transferring to the flowering areas. I was considering then transplanting them into 3 gallon smart pots. There is some debate as to whether this is too much soil for such a short veg time. I'm looking for input.

3. Growing with FFOF, perlite, dolomite lime, if I add fresh soil going into flowering, will I likely still need additional nutrients to feed the plants, or should the soil carry me through flowering? It's not that big of a deal because I plan to have PBP, molasses, tea ingredients on hand in order to get the job done if need be.


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: spec]
    #689573 - 10/17/13 01:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Okay. So I assume you feel you have a good chance to not be rejected by either state or couunty? Right on. Good luck on that aspect. I would love to be involved in something like that, but I HATE all the paperwork and red tape I know would be associated with it. Lol.

I can't really help you with your second and third questions... I don't deal with soil at all. Its too imprecice for my preferences.
Before I can answer your first question though, I gotta ask why you're going to split up your lights? I would think putting them all over the four tables in the same room would give you better results. You get overlap from the other three lights adding to the amount of light each table gets.

Honestly, I don't know why you're going with tents. They aren't really for long-term use, IMO. Youu would be better off spending the $$ on lumber drywall and paint than the tents.

When it comes to your asssumption that you can draw air indefinitely from the adjascent room, how big is said room? Where would that room's air come from? To cool five thousand watts, you're gonna need a LOT of air displacement. So much so that the 4" fans you mention will definitely NOT be enough to cool the lights. It is almost gaurenteed you will need some sort of cooling. I'm looking into water cooling myself. You will probably need to go with the dedicated line in/line out though. Make sure you clean all the air coming in with a hepa filter.


--------------------
My best run so far


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Offlinespec
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Tank333]
    #689786 - 10/19/13 12:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My original intent with the tents was to create a system of smaller environments that could be monitored and timed more easily. My concern with sticking all of the tables together is that it is going to be set up to be a perpetual harvest (3 weeks on, 1 week off x 2 - roughly). I'm assuming there would be an issue with plant canopies being different heights. Even though the reflectors would be cooled, I would have plants near completion pushing up against the hoods of lower-hung lights, no?

But as I started to look at the venting issues, I realized yep - running that many tents would be very messy to ventilate. So much ducting to run...

Setting up a flowering room within the room would be doable. 2 rows of 3 lights - each row cooled by an 8" fan drawing air from outside (ditched the side-room air intake because it just gets too complicated) through HEPA filters and then vent out of the room and outside again.

The room would be 15'x12'8'. 2 rows of 3 tables with 3' between (room to move through and water/work with plants) and 6" clearance on the sides. The additional 3' length would be so we could get into the side, have 2 reservoirs, some room to work around, etc. The room would need a pretty good amount of air exchange, so I am assuming at least one of these on an active air intake and exhausting through a carbon scrubber:

http://www.rvfgardensupply.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=736691

In addition to that, a few circulating fans as well.

I would then set up an 18/6 room to house mothers/clones/veg area apart from this in a similar, albeit smaller fashion.


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: spec]
    #689912 - 10/20/13 01:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Even though the reflectors would be cooled, I would have plants near completion pushing up against the hoods of lower-hung lights, no?




I think you could make your tables adjustable. Lift them up to start em, and drop em down a notch at a time as they grow... that will keep all your lights at the same level and you'll avoid having unnecessary bends in your ducting.


Quote:

2 rows of 3 lights -each row cooled by an 8" fan drawing air from outside (ditched the side-room air intake because it just gets too complicated) through HEPA filters and then vent out of the room and outside again




I'm assuming you mean to filter the air before it is introduced into the ventilation system, right? Big ass hepa on your intake, too. I don't think you need to have an active air intake. Your monster 14" fan on a carbon scrubber pushing air out should be plenty. I've never dealt with more than three or four KW at a time, but I think that's gonna be enough air exchange.

What do you have planned for cooling the room? That massive room is gonna need to have some serious coolant in there. Probably somewhere close to two tons, I would think... gonna get something professionally installed, or a DIY kit? I've seen some decent DIY mini-splits on amazon for pretty cheap. I think I was looking at a 16,000 BTU unit that could heat and cool for something like $650... add another $200 or so for a vacuum sealer and you're good to go!

Also, I'm curious why you're planning on using soil? I just personally see hydro as easier to control. Soil has a lot of variables that aren't always easy to control. With hydro, you know exactly what you're giving your plants, and IMO it makes it way easier to diagnose and correct problems. Yea, soil is more forgiving, but I've always had much better results with hydro rather than soil...



Looks like a nice setup you're planning out. You got any rough numbers on the cost for your equipment, I'm thinking you're looking at somewhere around $2,500 for lights, $2,00 for ventilation,  could be as much as a couple grand for cooling, then there's water filtration, nutrients, soil amendments, electrician costs, construction costs... you're looking at as much as ten G's when it's all said and done. Have you thought about getting your medical card first and starting out with just a quarter of what you've got planned? I've seen and heard of lots of growers spend a fuckton of money only to put their shit on craigslist 8-10 months later because they've just dug themselves a hole and bit off more than they could chew.


--------------------
My best run so far


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Offlinespec
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Tank333]
    #689952 - 10/20/13 11:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I probably should have mentioned that yes, I was planning on putting in a mini-split. The room is actually quite chilly if not heated any other time of the year than summer, but I'm assuming with all that action going on the grow area will need cooling for sure.

I just figured in an intake in case I needed it. Since the room won't be sealed, the passive air should take care of it. I meant that I would be putting HEPA filters on the lines bringing in air to cool the lights. I don't need a bunch of bugs deciding it's time to wage war on my garden through any little cracks they can find. If I ended up using an intake I would definitely use one there as well.

If you can point me toward adjustable tables, I'd be damn happy. I haven't found one yet.

Why soil? For one - I want to grow in soil, as it's what I've always been doing in container gardening - from which I have lifelong experience in other plants. Further, the location is on septic, and we have to comply with environmental laws when it comes to disposing of all that reservoir nitrogenous waste. With soil I can pretty much set up an "all-natural" garden and know that whoever buys my stuff is going to get excellent product that I can stand behind. Yessir, it's a bit more of a pain in the butt, but I think it's worth it (and it's way less of a pain than getting shut down by the EPA).

The water where I'm at is really, really good. I'll run some EC tests of course, and pH it, but I don't really think it will be necessary to run an R/O filter (but am prepared to if I need to).

Yes, I've run the numbers. It's no joke. You also have to consider utilities, replacement parts if things go tipsy, health insurance (Remember - it's a business), a backup generator so I don't destroy everything if there's an emergency power outage, a computer system with video surveillance, liability insurance to cover $1 million, as well as all the applicable business licensing expenses.

It's no joke. And yes, I have of course worried about completely screwing everything up and being out on my ass. But let me reiterate - if I am able to eventually go forward with this, I will be doing absolutely nothing else than growing marijuana for work. And boy howdy, I know that it's tough work (I come from a family of farmers) I sure would love to do it. I believe in the future of marijuana, and I think that by getting involved with i502 I can help be the start of something truly awesome. Frankly - I'm excited.


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: spec]
    #689991 - 10/20/13 05:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't read through all of this yet, but will try to later and help you out. 


But before I do so, you should keep in mind, growing marijuana is quite different than any other type of gardening. It's much trickier. 


You should start growing at home right now to start getting a feel for it.  If you don't, you could easily be setting yourself up for failure.  And much better to have some trial and error on a small scale, than when you are trying to go big.  And trust me, you aren't ready to go big yet.


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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Offlinespec
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #689996 - 10/20/13 05:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Totally agree. The first year is expected to be a period of experimentation with different methods, and for the first 2/3 of the year, I plan to only be operating at half the capacity of my space, tops.

As it is, it turns out we are going to have to wait until next year to get into the game - there were too many issues to sort out for residency of the license holder and life situations aren't working out right. Hopefully by next year, when we are in a better position to go forward, they will hold another application period. Otherwise I just missed it by an inch. Oh well.

Growing where I currently reside is really not an option. They put people away for a long time here and I would get caught without any doubt at all. I still intend to start working out details and get this project up, but I'm going to have to wait.


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: spec]
    #690001 - 10/20/13 06:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So wait, you don't even live in Washington yet?


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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Offlinespec
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #690008 - 10/20/13 06:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I was going to be working as an employee of the license holder, but we've decided to wait and apply for the license under my name next year once I am a resident of WA again. The license holder was primarily going to be the financier of the operation. As it is very close family who is extremely interested in medical marijuana, there are no stipulations about return on investment. Once we heard that the feds were going to leave WA alone, we decided we would act.

We weren't even going to be able to actually start on the site until June or so - it just wouldn't work out until that point. Of course, as the laws became more defined when they released details about the app process, we realized that our plan might be a bit too loose and didn't want to be brought up on fraud charges. In addition, it seems one of my family members is approaching the end of her life and so we will be likely busy with that this year.

So, yes we are waiting and keeping rapport with the folks I know who are involved wiht i502 and also the WSLCB - if the licenses are still granted next year, I will be ready to go then.

Really though - it's a load off my mind. As I have said, I've studied cannabis cultivation for a long time, have numerous friends in the medical business as of now, and have learned a great deal. This year will give me time to get things really together instead of having to steamroll over a business plan within a 1.5-2 month period.


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: spec]
    #690046 - 10/20/13 11:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

In the interim, you should source some beans and do yourself a mini-grow, just to get your hands dirty. Once you get the basics down, I'm sure it will give you a LOT more confidence and knowledge to bring to the table when this does happen. Who knows? The lessons you learn on a closet grow could potentially save you thousands from rookie mistakes in setting up the massive grow show....

Believe me, if I had had twenty G's two years ago when I first took the plunge from just reading to actually growing, I would have wasted two thirds of that on crap that I didn't need ot want in the end. I've changed my mind on the style of growing I want to do (when I do finally get to start a large warehouse grow) several times since I spent my first $2000 on equipment to start my 3kw virgin grow.

All the planning in the world (farming or reading) can't prepare you for the actual experience of indoor growing. Especially on the level you're talking about starting at.


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OfflineTank333
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Tank333]
    #690049 - 10/20/13 11:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

And if this friend is so interested in medical marijuana, he should get his card and start growing himself. Medical growers are unaffected by the statelaw referring to recreational use. He can grow up to 45 plants if he gets three cards together. That's PLENTY to make a decent chunk of change (or huge pile of meds) , even without getting into the licencing bullshit with the LCB.


--------------------
My best run so far


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Offlinespec
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Tank333]
    #690065 - 10/21/13 10:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah - I know that no matter what I plan, real world experience will ultimately trump any plans that I have. That's why I ultimately started taking my questions here. You guys are offering me good advice, and I appreciate that. It's definitely given me some stuff to think about - that much is sure.

There is, once again, no way at all that I can even do a super stealth grow in my current situation. I would not be able to hide it, and as I said earlier, they tend to put people in jail for a good long time for marijuana charges in my state. I don't plan on staying here forever because I really, really don't fit in.

I'm born and raised in WA, but my wife and I left for a more stabilized situation after job woes and me getting seriously ill for a spell - I lost a lot of weight - could hardly do 10 pushups by the time I'd moved. So after 3 years, we're back on our feet and doing really well. We are starting to look to move back to the coast and might be making a pitstop in Portland before ending up back in WA.

Now, moving to WA and getting into the medical side of things - THAT is a reasonable plan. I am for running a scaled down operation before deciding to "go big or go home". Once again, guys - thanks for the advice.

This decision to wait has me thinking more about constructing a super soil alá subcool, and focusing on what I really know about - mycorrhiza and beneficial microbes.


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OfflineHighdroponic
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Re: Need help running through operation plans [Re: Tank333]
    #746188 - 09/03/14 05:51 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

WA legalities aren't my area of expertise, but personally I'm more of a rock wool guy than soil. I know soil can be more forgiving, but I like the sterility rock wool provides when it comes to troubleshooting down the line.


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