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OfflineFRACTALife
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What do you think Kykeon was?
    #545739 - 04/12/11 07:49 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Let's make this an intelligent discussion between people who know what they are talking about.  :super:
What do you think Kykeon was?
You may choose only one
A brew made with Claviceps purpurea
Psilocybin mushrooms
An ayahuasca like brew made with Peganum harmala and a species of Phalaris and/or Acacia
Amanita Muscaria
Cannabis
Other


Votes accepted from (04/12/11 07:49 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineRasJeph
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: FRACTALife]
    #545742 - 04/12/11 07:51 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:


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Of course it's happening inside your head.
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OfflineDungenessDank
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: RasJeph]
    #545751 - 04/12/11 08:03 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

I voted shrooms, but I'd like to believe cannabis


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OfflineFRACTALife
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: DungenessDank]
    #545771 - 04/12/11 08:36 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DungenessDank said:
I voted shrooms, but I'd like to believe cannabis




If you don't mind, please explain the reason you picked psilocybin and what evidence leads you to believe that.
Also, why do you wish it would have been cannabis?


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Invisibleopenmind
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: FRACTALife]
    #545789 - 04/12/11 08:59 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

I'm sure you've read this already, but....





Quote:

Some scholars have proposed that the power of the Eleusinian Mysteries came from the kykeon's functioning as a psychedelic agent. Barley may be parasitized by the fungus ergot, which contains the psychoactive alkaloids lysergic acid amide (LSA), a precursor to LSD and ergonovine. It is possible that a psychoactive potion was created using known methods of the day. The initiates, sensitized by their fast and prepared by preceding ceremonies (see set and setting), may have been propelled by the effects of a powerful psychoactive potion into revelatory mind states with profound spiritual and intellectual ramifications. It is probable that the goddess Demeter brought the poppy with her from Creta to Eleusis and it is certain that opium was produced from poppies in Creta.

While modern scholars have presented evidence supporting their view that a potion was drunk as part of the ceremony, the exact composition of that agent remains controversial. Modern preparations of kykeon using ergot-parasitized barley have yielded inconclusive results, although Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin describe both ergonovine and LSA to be known to produce LSD-like effects. Terence McKenna speculated that the mysteries were focused around a variety of Psilocybe mushrooms. Various other entheogenic plants, such as Amanita muscaria mushrooms, have also been suggested, but at present no consensus has been reached. The size of the event may rule out Amanita or Psilocybe mushrooms as active ingredient, since it is unlikely that there would have been enough wild mushrooms for all participants. However a recent hypothesis suggests that Psilocybe cultivation technology was known in ancient Egypt, from which it could easily have spread to Greece.

Another theory is that the kykeon was an Ayahuasca analog involving Syrian Rue (Peganum harmala), a shrub which grows throughout the Mediterranean and also functions as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. The most likely candidate for the DMT containing plant, of which there are many in nature, would be species of Phalaris and/or Acacia. Other scholars however, noting the lack of any solid evidence and stressing the collective rather than individual character of initiation into the Mysteries, regard entheogenic theories with pointed skepticism. There is little beyond tenuous circumstantial evidence to support the theory; indeed, the few facts that led to the theory's formation in the first place are then invoked as supporting evidence, a form of circular reasoning; the scientific method requires that confirming evidence, beyond the observations used to form the hypothesis, be supplied before granting its veracity. While this may be true, the Mysteries are generally accepted to be associated with the consumption of some substance(s), possibly as a beverage, that induced visions and a feeling of oneness with at least mankind, if not the universe. This made the event particularly reliable, necessarily secret, in addition to special and certainly subject to strict sanctions if the secrecy were violated.

Use of potions or philtres for magical or religious purposes was relatively common in Greece and the ancient world. This would seem to argue against an entheogenic ceremony at Eleusis being so closely guarded a secret.

Indirect evidence in support of the entheogenic theory is that in 415 BC Athenian aristocrat Alcibiades was condemned partly because he took part in an "Eleusinian mystery" in a private house.







.


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OfflineCherokee
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: FRACTALife]
    #545793 - 04/12/11 09:11 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

i figured it was menstrual blood from a virgin goat


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: FRACTALife]
    #545794 - 04/12/11 09:13 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

I voted ergot
but to be honest I didn't know much about it so I had to look on wiki

the Iliad describes it as consisting of barley, water, herbs, and ground goat cheese

I think that narrows down the choices,

the herbs could be a a source of intoxication or sub lethal poison

I really don't see people making a drink out of cheese, but milk is possible
so it could be a mistranslation from something such as "milk of the poppy" or could have been some ancient "cannabutter"

and finally the barley is a known source of ergot
and given that this was consumed by peasants we can assume it was cheap low quality stuff which I think rules out the milk option


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OfflineFRACTALife
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: CosmicFool]
    #545797 - 04/12/11 09:28 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Wikipedia isn't the best source for this topic, but does have a brief and good explanation.

You, and I, should read some more of the books written on it.

If you want a really good but still brief explanation Christopher Gray does a good job of covering it all in only a few pages.

It seems like the most likely option would be an ergot concoction. But Hofmann and Ott both did self experiments with the chemical that would most likely be responsible for psychological effects in a drink made with a water infusion of ergot. Both of them did find hallucinatory and psychological effects in different dosages, but even the highest dose was nothing like a high dose LSD trip. It was way less intense.

So the question is how did these ancient people get such intense effects from something that only produced the effects of a low dose LSD trip?
Maybe they used a very complex process in creating the ergot brew, one that allowed for an intense hallucinogenic effect without the poisonous effects.
Perhaps they used a DMT or psilocybin brew.
Perhaps there bodies/brain responded to the drug differently.

An interesting theory that Christopher Gray raised was that the ergot possibly was a link back to birth and possibly back ever further. Since low doses of ergot were used very commonly in midwifery they could have provided an almost flashback to their birth, not much different from experiencing birth trauma during an LSD trip. :shrug:


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: FRACTALife]
    #545798 - 04/12/11 09:37 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

well I'm sure we've all heard that one explanation for the Salem witch trials was ergot

who knows if it's true
but look at the old Victorian era account of people eating hashish
back in the day most people weren't taken drugs on a daily basis like most of us
anything you did that messed with your brain chemistry completely change your perception of reality


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OfflineFRACTALife
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: CosmicFool]
    #545801 - 04/12/11 09:43 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Yes but those are all very different things.
I love learning about all the drug use by philosophers, scientists, and spiritual leaders.
There are countless examples of them and how accepted it was.

But the Eleusinian Mysteries are a very specific and interesting example to explore, mostly because we still don't know for sure what it was.


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OfflineHobgoblin
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: FRACTALife]
    #642269 - 10/29/12 02:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I THINK IT WAS A TRICK TO TRICK PEOPLE TO DRINK LARGE AMOUNTS OF ERGOT FUNGUS.... THEY WOULD WATCH THE PERSON DIE AND BURN ALIVE AND VOMIT AND HALLUCINATE AND SEIZURE AS THEIR BLOOD TURNS INTO ACID AND NAIL THEM TO A CROSS AND FLIP IT UPSIDE DOWN AND CUT THEIR THROAT OVER A WASHTUB!





I NEED KYK BLOOD!


HAPPY HALLOWEEN! :evil:




KYK BLOOD!!!!!!


Edited by Hobgoblin (10/29/12 02:50 PM)


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OfflineHobgoblin
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: Hobgoblin]
    #642507 - 10/30/12 03:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

it could also be psilocybin mushroom wine. that wouldnt be very hard to do :rolleyes:

pfft "kykeon"



ANY KYK?

do you want some jewish gangbang?
some trick wine?
here drink this, its kyk!!!!! GAAAHHHHHHH im gonna nail you to a cross and cut your head off!!!!! INEE KYK BLOOD!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineHobgoblin
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: Hobgoblin]
    #642508 - 10/30/12 03:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"Kykeon" pfffttt what are you guys christian or what?

its KYK!!!!!!!!
its whatever yo0u want it to be. Kyk wine mushrooms. Kyk water to wine... Kyk powder..... acid... ancient... whatever. Trick a bitch into downing a fat cup of ergot fungus nail em to a cross flip em upside down watch em die cut the throat and drink the blood. Ergot vampirism.... blood acid.... blood Kyk.... ergot Kyk.... trick... brew.... or.... big fat lie...... or... wine and shrooms.... death by crucifix and scythe or bring the undead back to life pffffft.... ancient ergot brew right yeah...... Kyk blood. this goes deep into ancient necromancy.... not christian LSD. oooo special ancient Greek wine from an ancient Greek pedophile. The great catholic golden gauntlet drop a sclerotia into a cup let it rot and dump it thru a cheesecloth and take a sip...... no duhh


Edited by Hobgoblin (10/30/12 04:22 PM)


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OfflineHobgoblin
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: Hobgoblin]
    #642510 - 10/30/12 04:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

and what do you little boys think KYK is?
ohhh just for the little lady she doesnt like wine heres some special minty Kyk just for the little lady here you go look what daddy made you some special ergot water...... no DUH its a VAMPIRE. commmeeee enter my guests enter my humble transylvanian home pleeeaaaseee sit sit please drink sit drink drink thats it eat my food yes yes drink my wine yes drink eat please stay you are my guests i insist stay here with me and be my guests FOREVERRRRRR drink drink my KyK fall unto my spell youl never want to leave you are my dear friends under my spell MUUAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHA its fuckin DRACULA. he is very lonely, careful not to hurt his feelings. and watch out for the butler hunchback as well.


Edited by Hobgoblin (10/30/12 04:43 PM)


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InvisibleP-O
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: Hobgoblin]
    #642863 - 11/01/12 01:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

:uppercut:


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InvisibleAlounacara
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Re: What do you think Kykeon was? [Re: Hobgoblin]
    #642866 - 11/01/12 02:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I cant believe you are still here mr know it all:crankey:


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