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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Claw leaf and general questions.
    #444172 - 07/09/10 04:58 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

A little backstory:

I built a tiny little cab out of a trunk and some cfl's to get my feet wet before i built a real cab, here it is:



nothing special but it can hold the bonsai mother that I'm attempting to grow:



I installed 3 Cfl's and an intake and exhaust fan:




That girl is now in ~week 7 (i kinda lost track) but at least 2 weeks of that there was no growth and the plant almost died. through a little help here (thanks guys!) i realized i did everything wrong. to name a few, no nutes, wrong soil, no fresh air, etc etc.

I transplanted to Miracle Grow Organic Choice:



I mixed this with about 20% perlite to fluff it up a little. I did make a mistake of not adding any gravel to the bottom but it seems to drain just fine.

Due to a lack of funds, I went out and purchased "Dynamite Mater Magic" which is a tomato fertilizer. I've read some successful grow reports from people that use it.

It is 8-5-5



I only used it at about 2/3rds strength, and growth went out the roof for a couple weeks. It says that it lasts upwards of 2 months, but I have no reliable way of knowing how much to use, and since it is time released (i think?) i didn't want to burn my plant to death!

I also stopped using tapwater and started using bottled water that is at ~6.0ph

all in all, everything was looking up. for a few weeks I kept them on a 20/4 light cycle that i fucked up a few times but since its just in Veg it probably isnt a big deal, I know you can't really give them too much ligh.

I kept them at about 4" away from the lights, turned daily for even growth.

HOWEVER, lately the large fan leaves near the bottom look LESS than robust, and have begun to curl up. growth has also slowed. here are some pictures:







They are 2 shades of dark green with some areas/splotches of light green.

virtually no yellowing or browning or decaying leaves.

confirmed as a female.

close nodes.

it's just these leaves look so, well, not happy.

I decided maybe it was too hot so i lowered them away from the lights, I also raised the humidity from 30-40RH to about 60RH in the area.

at canopy level the temps are now running between 75-80 depending on the time of day.

I try not to overwater, i wait until the soil is fully dry and hard on top before watering again.

Thanks if you made it through all this, Big ups to the growery and all your help guys! let me know if there is anything i can tell you or elaborate on.

HELP ME UNCURL THESE LEAVES!


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


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Invisiblecoda


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,734
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444225 - 07/09/10 06:25 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)



I think the time release stuff may be fucking you here.  Looks like classic N toxicity to me. 

Quote:

Now for having too much nitrogen in your growing mediums or soil. The plant will have like an overall DARK green look and have delayed maturity. Due to Nitrogen being involved in vegetative growth, to much nitrogen will result in tall plants with weak stems. New growth will be very lively and plant transpiration will be high, but not always. Nitrogen toxicity can be seen when there are very very dry conditions almost as if there was a drought, which may show a burning effect. If you give your plants ammonium based nutrients they may show NH4+ toxicity, which will show a smaller plant growth and lesions that occur on stems and roots, leaf margins that will roll downward. Also the big fan leaves will have “the claw” look. The tips will point down but the leaves will stay up as if when you bend your fingers downwards. Leaves can be twisted when growing… mainly new growths. Roots will be under developed along with the slowing of flowering. Yields will be decreased, because to much nitrogen in early stages of flowering slows down bud growth. Water uptake is slowing down from the vascular breakdown of the plants as well. Too much potassium and nitrogen will lock out calcium as well.




--------------------


MFDoom666: sobriety kills my buzz every time.


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Offlinelostinbq
!!!STARNGE!!!!


Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 581
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: coda]
    #444279 - 07/09/10 09:31 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

whats the NPK on that soil.. i use other mg dirt and i havent had a problem but i think i looked at that and did not like the npk ratio..
yea my dirt's NPK is .21-.07-.14    says 6 month but when u water every 3 days i don't think it would matter. and i only used tap water for veg. and u never said how often u water. in 3 days under 6 cfl's my dirt is dry to touch and 1 to 2 inched deep very dry. to me it looks like first signs of over watering.

edit; after reading again i saw ur watering schedule. still when u water stick ur finger in the middle almost not to close but close enough and if it feels moist wait another day,


--------------------
Everyone are you ready for doom,
Because I've blackened the sun,
And I've bloodied the moon.
I bring gloom when I step in the room,
With the fumes of a tomb.
flowers bloom when Im taken away
:rofldrunk:


Edited by lostinbq (07/09/10 09:34 PM)


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: coda]
    #444433 - 07/10/10 07:29 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

coda said:


I think the time release stuff may be fucking you here.  Looks like classic N toxicity to me. 

Quote:

Now for having too much nitrogen in your growing mediums or soil. The plant will have like an overall DARK green look and have delayed maturity. Due to Nitrogen being involved in vegetative growth, to much nitrogen will result in tall plants with weak stems. New growth will be very lively and plant transpiration will be high, but not always. Nitrogen toxicity can be seen when there are very very dry conditions almost as if there was a drought, which may show a burning effect. If you give your plants ammonium based nutrients they may show NH4+ toxicity, which will show a smaller plant growth and lesions that occur on stems and roots, leaf margins that will roll downward. Also the big fan leaves will have “the claw” look. The tips will point down but the leaves will stay up as if when you bend your fingers downwards. Leaves can be twisted when growing… mainly new growths. Roots will be under developed along with the slowing of flowering. Yields will be decreased, because to much nitrogen in early stages of flowering slows down bud growth. Water uptake is slowing down from the vascular breakdown of the plants as well. Too much potassium and nitrogen will lock out calcium as well.







mmk i had a hunch.

now i flushed it last time i watered, but being (i think) time released nutes that probably doesn't get the job done.

seeing as how the plant overall looks relatively healthy, (no yellow leaves, nothing dying or falling off, etc, if i just keep flushing each time i water until growth returns to normal, and then resume a 1/4 strength feeding schedule with some legit nutes, do you think i'll be ok? or is this an inevitable downward spiral?

or should i take some cuttings and start over? should i lower my humidity to increase transpiration? or should i keep it high to slow it down and prevent the plant from sucking up more N?

edit: upon reading that again, ALL the signs of N tox is there. twisting leaves, claw leaves, dark green, etc etc. so we have a confirmed diagnosis here....whats the solution? (keeping in mind it's time released..)

edit2: also, most of the nitrogen in my fertilizer is water insoluble according to the packaging. this means flushing won't removed this from the soil doesnt it? should i removed it from the pot and wash off a good amount of the dirt and then repot it in a new medium perhaps? just throwin ideas out..


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


Edited by citizen13 (07/10/10 12:41 PM)


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Offlinelostinbq
!!!STARNGE!!!!


Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 581
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444494 - 07/10/10 01:20 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

edit2: also, most of the nitrogen in my fertilizer is water insoluble according to the packaging. this means flushing won't removed this from the soil doesn't it? should i removed it from the pot and wash off a good amount of the dirt and then re-pot it in a new medium perhaps? just throwing ideas out..

i saw a guy do this cous he had bad algae in his pot(he had bad fly situation due to over watering. he did not notice the alge untill i told him. green ring around the top of the pot,) sadly to say he killed it. might have been complete root shock due to his process..

just hang in there some times plants growth slows horribly(2 of my 5 did for like 2 weeks then bam freakin grew into the light.

try to keep them 1 1/2 inch from the light cous u are using cfl's.

4 inches might be a bit far away.

thease plants will take a shit load of abuse.. I.E i grew a plant in rotten water soaked carpet in my basement.. and it grew to 3 inches befor the carpet dried out.

just hang in there and try to get another light or 2 in there 3 is good for first stages of growth.. i have 6 65k cfl's now and they love it.. the bigger your plant gets the more light it will want.. that could explain the slow growth. 


im not a expert but im jus trying to share what i have researched.


and still whats the NPK of your soil... u might be giveing it more N than it needs cous of the time release..


--------------------
Everyone are you ready for doom,
Because I've blackened the sun,
And I've bloodied the moon.
I bring gloom when I step in the room,
With the fumes of a tomb.
flowers bloom when Im taken away
:rofldrunk:


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: lostinbq]
    #444498 - 07/10/10 01:24 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

.1-.05-.05

im going to move it back near the light, last thing i need is more N building up because i moved it further from the lights.

we can rule out that my plant isn't heat stressed right? thats why i moved it in the beginning because i thought that might be the problem, i now know better.

edit: maybe i can get one of those big boy cfl's the size of a nerf football to add but i dont think there is too much more space for more lights.


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


Edited by citizen13 (07/10/10 01:34 PM)


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Offlinelostinbq
!!!STARNGE!!!!


Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 581
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444510 - 07/10/10 01:35 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

yea no heat when i first built my box i did not put exuast in for a day cous it was too late to use power tools any more and when i woke up after lights on for a hour and a half my whole plant was hunched over and stems where soft really soft...

edit i waterd and a hour later it was perky again lol..


--------------------
Everyone are you ready for doom,
Because I've blackened the sun,
And I've bloodied the moon.
I bring gloom when I step in the room,
With the fumes of a tomb.
flowers bloom when Im taken away
:rofldrunk:


Edited by lostinbq (07/10/10 01:35 PM)


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: lostinbq]
    #444522 - 07/10/10 01:43 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

ok its about an inch away from the top now.

i guess ill keep flushing when i water... this N isnt water soluble so i'm not too sure how mush good that will do.


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


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Offlinelostinbq
!!!STARNGE!!!!


Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 581
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444527 - 07/10/10 01:54 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

you are not flowering are u? how long dose the MG says it feeds for? if u mixed it with pertile u may be able to cut that time in half/

gta run to the store for some stuff to make my grandmothers authentic Maryland crab soup!!!



have u tried to water then pick up the plant to see the weight and u can wait till it is really light to water cous the center of the dirt will hold moisture for a bit.. mine get wicked light before i water..

if there is no change in a week or 2 then u may want to get some other dirt. and try to make a cutting if its a female... but id try to wait to see unless u got fem seeds..


patience is a VIRTUE..


--------------------
Everyone are you ready for doom,
Because I've blackened the sun,
And I've bloodied the moon.
I bring gloom when I step in the room,
With the fumes of a tomb.
flowers bloom when Im taken away
:rofldrunk:


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: lostinbq]
    #444944 - 07/11/10 04:51 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

just poppin in to see if anyone has thought of a way to remove this time released nute? repot? keep flushing?


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


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Invisiblecoda


Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,734
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444947 - 07/11/10 04:59 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

repot into clean soil would be best.  You might not get all of it, but it's better then letting it sit in it.


--------------------


MFDoom666: sobriety kills my buzz every time.


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: coda]
    #444954 - 07/11/10 05:08 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

ok will do.


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: coda]
    #444962 - 07/11/10 05:16 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

coda said:
repot into clean soil would be best.  You might not get all of it, but it's better then letting it sit in it.




hrmph.

so i took it out of the 2-3 gallon (i forget) pot and this is what i find:



i took off the top couple inches of dirt without disturbing the roots, so hopefully i lost some of that time released crap, but i wasnt able to remove any other dirt.

i took the opportunity to add some packing peanuts on the bottom for drainage because i had forgotten before.

on another note, is it rootbound? i thought plants with N tox had poor root structure..looks pretty healthy to me..

i have some floranova Grow on the way. should i not use it at 1/4 strength when it gets here? that would just compact the problem right?

:strokebeard: ...:shrug:

edit: WTF now that i have packing peanuts on the bottom it doesnt drain at all.

/facepalm

edit2: ok punched a few more holes so at least its draining now. i guess the peanuts actually plugged up the holes. i don't know why people all over the net suggest using them, gravel or stone would have been much better.


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


Edited by citizen13 (07/11/10 05:21 PM)


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Offline81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,181
Loc: State of Mind Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
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Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444963 - 07/11/10 05:20 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Why are you using packing peanuts?  That strikes me as really odd and even a bit unwise...what does styrofoam degrade into, and what kind of interactions will it have with the chemicals in your nutes?


--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut


BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.


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Offlinecitizen13
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Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: 81renaissance]
    #444965 - 07/11/10 05:25 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

81renaissance said:
Why are you using packing peanuts?  That strikes me as really odd and even a bit unwise...what does styrofoam degrade into, and what kind of interactions will it have with the chemicals in your nutes?




i have no idea to your questions, but as far as why:

http://www.google.com/search?q=packing+peanuts+for+drainage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

edit: i do know that styrofoam takes centuries to degrade without UV rays


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


Edited by citizen13 (07/11/10 05:26 PM)


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444969 - 07/11/10 05:30 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

i'm facepalming so hard over here right now


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


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Offlinecitizen13
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 94
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: citizen13]
    #444975 - 07/11/10 06:00 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

well i'm flushing it a a whole bunch now that i got it draining. i'll hope for the best.

just popped 3 trainwreck seeds in anticipation of this all going south really fast. we will see what happens. :shrug:


--------------------
My current Growlog/DIY compendium

lock the doors and close the blinds, we're going for a ride.


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Offlinekyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: 81renaissance]
    #445090 - 07/12/10 12:55 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

many people use packing peanuts for potting material.  In fact, it's probably one of the most popular mediums for commercial phalanopsis breeders, being that it hardly ever needs changing, retains very little water, and is a very airy and open material. 


As for the safety issue, i doubt i would use it on anything I'm going to consume


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Offlinekyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: 81renaissance]
    #445091 - 07/12/10 12:56 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I just use regular window screen


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InvisibleInverted
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Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star Flag
Re: Claw leaf and general questions. [Re: kyuzo]
    #445221 - 07/12/10 12:06 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Like Coda said, N toxicity and likely PH problems.


--------------------
Don't criticize what you can't understand


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