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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
CO2 and Ventilation Logistics
    #104302 - 08/06/08 02:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

  I kind of asked part of this in another thread but I was hoping a new one would get a faster and more complete response. I'm hoping to finish my boxes today. I have been trying to read up as much as I can on CO2 enrichment. Other than Overgrow (RIP) I don't really know of other good web forums. There isn't much on the subject here. I have gone through a few books.

  The most detailed talked about successful implementation where enrichment was applied the first half of the day. And then just fan as normal afterwards. Also it mentioned that some people have noticed decreased potency from using it too late into flowering and recommended you to stop enrichment at 10-14 days prior to harvest. So do you know of any resources to check out? Any first hand experience?
 
    Also as far as running fans during CO2 use, do I need to vent lets say once every three hours? My setup includes an air cooled HPS so heat isn't really an issue. I was kind of worried about smell. I mean if I am not actively pumping air out of the enclosure is it going to creep out? I'm going to be running the show in a wood box with a zipper tarp door. I am going to seal all of the wood seams. Do you think smell is going to creep out of it? Also the idea of just running the one fan through your filter. I don't know if there is enough permeability in the setup to allow positive pressure to do it's thing.

    If I do run an intake fan, I think that a dampener will be in order. The ones at Home Depot are kind of bulky. The ones off of a gardening supplier that I've been doing business with look more ideal but it will end up costing about $25 and it just seems like you could fabricate your own. Have any of you done this? What materials did you use? If I do go this route, the obstruction is going to lower the effective cfm rating of the fan. If a 55cfm fan is what would be necessary to vent my space would a 65cfm fan do the job with the dampener in front of it?


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Edited by Eleutherios (08/06/08 09:14 PM)


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
Failed Botanist
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 6,163
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #104552 - 08/06/08 05:21 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Paragraphs please. :frown:


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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #104849 - 08/06/08 09:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

There I hope that helps a little. Sorry to have made that as unreadable as possible.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #104860 - 08/06/08 09:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Okay as far as potency goes it will improve as long as your co2 ppm is the same as your nutrient ppm.

I believe added co2 is only beneficial during light hours but plants grow constantly so that may not be true.

If you don't run your fans at least a osilating fan co2 enrichment won't do much as the air needs to move for your plants to use co2... I've heard ltos of people stopping there extration and intake fans with vented hoods no problem... ive never used co2 so can't help you there.


Dampener????


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OfflineSirius
Saturn Ascends


Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #104937 - 08/07/08 12:31 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I've never heard the co2/nutrient ppm correlation theory before, and don't quite see how it makes sense, beyond the general sense that every aspect of the environment needs to be optimal to receive maximum benefit from other aspects. That doesn't explain the exact correlation though, which just doesn't sound like it is true. :shrug:

The best thing to do is put your extractor fan and your CO2 regulator on timers, so that they alternate, since there is no benefit in releasing CO2 when the air is being sucked out of the room. Turning the fan off for fifteen minutes every hour is a good formula, I think, and that should help alleviate concerns with the smell leaking out, since the fan would still be running most of the time, at a regular interval. While you don't want to be extracting the air from the room while releasing CO2, you will want an oscillating fan blowing air around the room, so that the CO2 is circulating around the plants (it is heavier than air, and it isn't the roots that need it :grin:).

I think the standard level people aim for when working with CO2 enrichment is 1500ppm. Anything over 2000ppm could inhibit growth. CO2 enrichment will only happen during the day, because its needed for photosynthesis to take place, and photosynthesis doesn't take place at night (even though the plants still grow at night, due to light-independent reactions). As long as you are providing enough frequent air exchange, it isn't necessary, but I'm sure there's a difference 300ppm and 1500ppm. :wink: 

The thing you need to keep in mind, though, is that it isn't just about CO2, but really the relationship between your CO2 levels, the temperature, relative humidity, and light intensity. For example, if the temperature and light intensity isn't high enough for photosynthesis to be happening quick enough for it to actually need the extra amounts of CO2, then there's no reason to supplement. To quote from this, which seems to be a great resource on CO2 enrichment:

Quote:


Standard growing conditions typically include concentrations of CO2 at 300-500 ppm, temperatures between 65-80°F, and relatively low humidity (20-40% rH). Studies have shown optimal growth and yields at 90-95°F, 1,500 ppm CO2, 45-50% relative humidity, 7,500-10,000 lumens/square foot of light, and vigorous air movement both above and below the canopy. CO2 enrichment under 80°F, under 7500 lumens/sf, or above 50% humidity is not recommended because plants will not be conducting photosynthesis quickly enough to benefit from the enrichment.




If you're not leaving space for air to passively be taken into the room by your extractor fan, then, by all means, put another extractor fan in that pulls air into the room. Don't know anything about a dampener though.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Registered: 06/25/08
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Sirius]
    #106054 - 08/08/08 05:18 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I've never heard the co2/nutrient ppm correlation theory before, and don't quite see how it makes sense, beyond the general sense that every aspect of the environment needs to be optimal to receive maximum benefit from other aspects. That doesn't explain the exact correlation though, which just doesn't sound like it is true. 




I saw it in a grow movie, either seemorebuds or one of jorge cervantes movies.


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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #106443 - 08/09/08 12:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It turns out that I'm fucked since I only have 6,660 lumens per ft2. So I guess on the one hand it makes my setup less complicated and on the other gives me something else to play with when I construct my next setup. The glass IS half full damn it.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #106515 - 08/09/08 03:45 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

if your using cfls you go by lumens per sqft. if your using hid you go by watt per sqft.

you want 50w per sq ft with hids and 7-10 thousand lumens per square foot with cfls.


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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #106516 - 08/09/08 03:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I believe its 54 watts per ft2. So I guess I am still in the game.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #106519 - 08/09/08 03:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

maybe

I've always heard 50 watts.. im not even sure if it's a scientific figure... I think it's just what growers decided is most effecient.


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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #106605 - 08/09/08 11:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

That's scientific enough for me. I had always read that. Then recently I saw lots of references to 40 watts per ft2. So I thought that since I was a little over in either direction, all would be good. The only book I've seen specifically on the subject goes for $15. Its a fucking 96 page book. I wish they had it at Barns and Noble... I think that the nutrient ppm will be adequate, so do you think that I have enough light to make it worth while. I mean a friend had given me the tank. I know a place where I could trade nugs or fungus for refilled tanks. All I had to pay for was the regulator.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #106607 - 08/09/08 12:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

many people go over 50w per sq ft.

look at people who grow in 3x3 areas with 600w's = 66.67w per sq ft.

I've seen multiple grows in 3x3 or 3.15 x 3.15 areas (1m2)with a 1kw light thats like 100 watts per sq ft or a bit more.


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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #106631 - 08/09/08 12:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

My worry wasn't too much light, but rather to little to make the CO2 enrichment worth while.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #106638 - 08/09/08 01:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

50 watt per sq ft is gold then.


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OfflineBlargIAmDead


Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 266
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #106805 - 08/09/08 06:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Right now I've got bout 120 W for a square foot in CFL's.....It's like a night light for my room O_O. It's east to get CFL's close together and they're cheap. Though I am experiencing some heating issues that I'm going to resolve shortly. I think you should be okay.


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Invisiblecaptain.koons
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Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: BlargIAmDead]
    #106810 - 08/09/08 06:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Well 120w pretending your using 42w phillips cfls would work out to over 10k lumens per sq ft.

As said watt per sq ft when talking about cfls isn't the best.


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OfflineBlargIAmDead


Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 266
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: captain.koons]
    #106814 - 08/09/08 06:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Well since you know best Capt. I'll just said "Okay" And let you know how it goes :smile:. It's first grow and bagseed anyway so setup cost me all of 5 gatoraide bottles and such. I had higher aspirations but they got shot down quickly when I realized I'm gonna be pretty mobile here in the coming years. Which by the by if anyone is looking for like rockwool cubes, a pump, and a 50 lb bag of hydroton (which I stole some of to use for proper drainage) let me know :smile:.


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OfflineEleutherios


Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 76
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: CO2 and Ventilation Logistics [Re: Eleutherios]
    #109029 - 08/14/08 12:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

After reading a bit over at icmag.com, it looks like my best bet is going to be a closed system. There will be a vent for the enclosed reflector, but the air scrubber and fan can go inside the box. That way air is still being cleaned of the funky freshness while not sacrificing any CO2. There is a circulating fan but no exhaust for the main enclosure.


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