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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
White widow LIL POLYPLOID!
    #853536 - 12/12/21 10:49 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

god really blessed me with this little  mutant. My first year growing, 4th set of crops, i thought  "hmm im gonna run a bunch of clones in 1 gallon cloth pots" STUPID! tiny plants that took a bunch of space and forever to finsh EXCEPT....

all the plants were trimmed to a Y shape, all pics same plant sorry if confusing layout, but this one had one regular branch and one with a flat ribbon stem! A polyploid!


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This site is dead and nobody here is even growing

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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853537 - 12/12/21 10:53 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

i smoked the hammer end in a joint, i harvested kinda early but maan it was still a wee bit extra potent extra calyxes packed in the nug! the branch reg bits i blasted into this

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Offlineyoosername
Strange

Registered: 06/09/17
Posts: 665
Loc: Somewhere under the Sun
Last seen: 1 hour, 54 minutes
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853554 - 12/13/21 06:18 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Polypoids are interesting.  You can, for example, take a tetraploid, cross it to a regular diploid, and the result will be a triploid, which should have higher exotic cannabinoid levels and be completely sterile.

Even if pollinated, a triploid female will not produce seeds.

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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: yoosername]
    #853557 - 12/13/21 09:01 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm i didnt know that but i havent heard those terms before either, interesting

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Invisibleares
God Of War

Registered: 01/07/21
Posts: 56
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853590 - 12/13/21 07:46 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Never heard about polyploid cannabis until now, but after some reading on https://dutch-passion.com/en/blog/polyploid-cannabis-what-is-polyploid-cannabis-n926 it looks that a polyploid cannabis would have 3, or more, paired chromosomes instead of the normal two.

How do you know it's polyploid? Can you tell by visually inspecting the plant?

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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: ares]
    #853598 - 12/14/21 05:37 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Ahhh i think youre both not seeing it misunderstanding, look carefully at the photos, see the normal cola then look at the other cola

this is polyploidism in a sunflower

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OfflineRider420
Stranger


Registered: 06/21/17
Posts: 518
Last seen: 26 days, 2 hours
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853643 - 12/14/21 11:29 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Hey buddy here is a pic of a cannabis plant that has whorled phyllotaxy. FYI Whorled phyllotaxy is a mutation for extra leaves, but does not have extra genes. Unlike Polyploidy which is a condition in which the cells of an organism have more than two paired (homologous) sets of chromosomes.




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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Rider420]
    #853647 - 12/14/21 12:13 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

i would have also called that a polyploid but you probably know better than me. Looks awesome!

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InvisibleDataM
That Guy
Male


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,975
Loc: Southwestern US Flag
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853693 - 12/14/21 04:42 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

kreg said:
Ahhh i think youre both not seeing it misunderstanding, look carefully at the photos, see the normal cola then look at the other cola

this is polyploidism in a sunflower




This is actually called fasciation, and it is caused by a malformed apical meristem (which normally grows from a point, and in fasciated plants tends to grow from a line). Genetic mutation, damage from bugs or mites, infection by various plant pathogens, can all cause fasciation.

Just because a plant shows fasciation does not necessarily mean it is a polyploid. :shrug:


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT

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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Data]
    #853699 - 12/14/21 06:26 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmmm alright well it had a flat ribbon like stem on the mutated cola in focus so i guess just faciaton

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Invisibleares
God Of War

Registered: 01/07/21
Posts: 56
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853715 - 12/14/21 08:12 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for explanation. Learning more every day :potleaf:

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OfflineRider420
Stranger


Registered: 06/21/17
Posts: 518
Last seen: 26 days, 2 hours
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Data]
    #853764 - 12/15/21 10:42 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Data said:

This is actually called fasciation, and it is caused by a malformed apical meristem (which normally grows from a point, and in fasciated plants tends to grow from a line). Genetic mutation, damage from bugs or mites, infection by various plant pathogens, can all cause fasciation.

Just because a plant shows fasciation does not necessarily mean it is a polyploid. :shrug:




https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-the-most-common-cannabis-mutations-n727

The Most Common Cannabis Mutations
DUCKSFOOT CANNABIS
VARIEGATION
WHORLED PHYLLOTAXY
CREEPER CANNABIS
AUSTRALIAN BASTARD CANNABIS
VINE CANNABIS
LEAF BUDS
POLYPLOIDISM
TWIN SEEDLINGS
FOXTAILED CANNABIS


But nothing about fasciated cannabis but all the pics like the one I posted show whorled phyllotaxy in cannabis look similar to the pics of those flowers called fasiated. Odds are they are the same thing just called different names depending on your source.

How many of these mutations have you had? I've had variegation, whorled phyllotaxy, leaf buds, twin seedlings and fox tailed cannabis.

I love buds on big fan leaves its an extra gift and very easy to trim!

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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Rider420]
    #853765 - 12/15/21 10:52 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

australian bastard cannabis lol what
gotta google that


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This site is dead and nobody here is even growing

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Offlinekreg

Registered: 09/15/21
Posts: 1,479
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: kreg]
    #853766 - 12/15/21 10:54 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

ooooh that looks provocative,  hadnt seen that before!

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InvisibleDataM
That Guy
Male


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,975
Loc: Southwestern US Flag
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Rider420]
    #853782 - 12/15/21 03:25 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rider420 said:
Quote:

Data said:

This is actually called fasciation, and it is caused by a malformed apical meristem (which normally grows from a point, and in fasciated plants tends to grow from a line). Genetic mutation, damage from bugs or mites, infection by various plant pathogens, can all cause fasciation.

Just because a plant shows fasciation does not necessarily mean it is a polyploid. :shrug:




https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-the-most-common-cannabis-mutations-n727

The Most Common Cannabis Mutations
DUCKSFOOT CANNABIS
VARIEGATION
WHORLED PHYLLOTAXY
CREEPER CANNABIS
AUSTRALIAN BASTARD CANNABIS
VINE CANNABIS
LEAF BUDS
POLYPLOIDISM
TWIN SEEDLINGS
FOXTAILED CANNABIS


But nothing about fasciated cannabis but all the pics like the one I posted show whorled phyllotaxy in cannabis look similar to the pics of those flowers called fasiated. Odds are they are the same thing just called different names depending on your source.

How many of these mutations have you had? I've had variegation, whorled phyllotaxy, leaf buds, twin seedlings and fox tailed cannabis.

I love buds on big fan leaves its an extra gift and very easy to trim!




The fact that they used the term "polypoidism" vs the actual term "polyploidy" indicates that they probably don't know what they are talking about. The fact that you are finding this misconception in multiple places throughout the cannabis community is an example of bandwagon fallacy, and there is plenty of well-documented research to back this up. :shrug:

Like I said, polyploidy is the condition of having extra copies of chromosomes (normally diploid (2 copies), so polyploidy is three or more copies). Fasciation is a condition involving physically malformed apical meristems. Polyploidy sometimes results in dramatic physical differences, but it sometimes doesn't, and people may have trouble telling a normal diploid from a polyploid. In fact, I would be willing to bet that a lot of top-producing cannabis strains (especially clone-only) are polyploid to some degree. Polyploidy is a desired trait in a lot of crop plants, because stable polyploids typically grow larger and produce more (although again, this isn't always the case).

Claiming that all forms of cannabis fasciation is due to polyploidy is like saying that all plants with purple pigmentation are grandaddy purple strain. The physical manifestation of purple pigmentation can be caused by a lot of things, including being of the grandaddy purple strain. Another example would be to say that every plant labeled "grandaddy purple" will have all of its leaves and bud turn dark purple every time, no matter the conditions. Those statements don't make sense if you know the difference between genotype and phenotype, or understand that there are factors beyond genetics that can cause some of these physical attributes. The same is true for fasciation and polyploidy, while polyploidy can be a cause of fasciation in plants, the existence of one does not guarantee the existence of the other. The fact that a lot of people in the cannabis community misunderstands this does not make it less true.

I have personally experienced foxtail, whorled phyllotaxy, leaf buds, and twin seedlings. I have seen a variegated cannabis plant in a friend's growroom before, but have never directly sprouted one myself. :happyweed:


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT

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OfflineRider420
Stranger


Registered: 06/21/17
Posts: 518
Last seen: 26 days, 2 hours
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Data]
    #853864 - 12/16/21 11:31 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Semantics is so much fun but the human ego is so fragile always needing to be right!


So many people call a cultivar a strain but I'm sure Data never has.

Best of luck at being perfect buddy. :jointcross:

BTW google whorled phyllotaxy and you will get pics like the one I posted, the mutation that causes three node per branch also causes the buds that look like fasciation. So if you have whorled phyllotaxy plant you know the buds will turn out like the ones in these pics.

Edited by Rider420 (12/16/21 12:16 PM)

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InvisibleDataM
That Guy
Male


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,975
Loc: Southwestern US Flag
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Rider420]
    #853867 - 12/16/21 12:09 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rider420 said:
Semantics is so much fun but the human ego is so fragile always needing to be right!

So many people call a cultivar a strain but I'm sure Data never has.

Best of luck at being perfect buddy. :jointcross:




Whoa buddy, chill out. :rolleyes:

It was discussion. There was obviously some misunderstanding about polyploidy in this thread, and just as you were posting your information, I was posting mine. I have a background in biology, I have worked on projects inducing polyploidy in different plants, including cannabis. It is obvious when people say that fasciation and polyploidy are the same thing that they are mistaken, this is a fact and not an opinion. If you don't believe me, go read a book, or at the very least, a wikipedia article about the two subjects, and you'll find that I am correct.

I'm not claiming to know everything about everything, but I know that what was posted here is incorrect, and have explained why. My mistake in using the vernacular of the cannabis community does not make that any less true. It was not my intention to call you out or hurt your feelings. This has happened multiple times in the past, and I'm not sure if its my choice of language that doesn't sit right with you (and if so, probably others), or your ego getting the best of you, but either way, I apologize for giving off the wrong vibe in my response. :peace:

Have a good day, Rider :pipesmoke:


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT

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OfflineRider420
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Registered: 06/21/17
Posts: 518
Last seen: 26 days, 2 hours
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Data]
    #853870 - 12/16/21 01:24 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

My mistake in using the vernacular of the cannabis community does not make that any less true.




Sorry buddy but all knowledge is local. And if you check online you will discover the stoners vernacular for what you call fasciation they call whorled phyllotaxy. Your right from an academic point but wrong in the cannabis community who set thier own rules.

Who do you side with academia or the cannabis culture?

:laugh: A loaded question because according to conventional academia cannabis is a harmful drug with no medical uses.

Edited by Rider420 (12/16/21 02:48 PM)

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InvisibleDataM
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,975
Loc: Southwestern US Flag
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Rider420]
    #853873 - 12/16/21 02:48 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rider420 said:
Sorry buddy but all knowledge is local. And if you check online you will discover the stoners vernacular for what you call fasciation they call whorled phyllotaxy. You right from an academic point but wrong in the cannabis community who set thier own rules.




I don't think that's correct. I'm pretty sure that googling cannabis polyploidy gives more consistent results for a cristate-style growth pattern, both on cannabis flowers, cacti, and other plants. In fact, doing a wikipedia search for "cristate" on wikipedia re-directs to the article on fasciation. I'm also pretty sure that up until the point where you decided that what kreg was posting about was whorled phyllotaxy, we were all discussing whether or not kreg had a polyploid plant.

Phyllotaxy is the "academic" term for the arrangement of leaves on a plant stem, and whorled phyllotaxy is a physical description of a particular type of phyllotaxy that is not specific to cannabis mutations. Since phyllotaxy is determined by the ebb and flow of auxin concentrations in the stem tissue near the apical meristem, the mutations that cause whorled phyllotaxy in cannabis can also cause structural differences in the flowers. But as I've said before, this does not mean that fasciation is the same thing as whorled phyllotaxy, because you can have an intact meristem (aka not fasciation) and still have malformed flowers from whorled phyllotaxy, and even the cannabis community differentiates between the mutations that cause whorled phyllotaxy and polyploidy, which most of cannabis community confuses with fasciation.


Quote:

Rider420 said:
Who do you side with academia or the cannabis culture?



That's another logical fallacy, its called a false dichotomy.

I prefer to exist within both communities. When you are trying to actually understand and differentiate between complex topics like genetics and biological systems, academia is your best bet. That being said, the cannabis community is also actively involved in cannabis-specific plant research.

Even within the cannabis community, there is a mixture of both the ad-hoc, practical problem solving through trial & error, and the systematic, academic process of literature review, hypothesis formulation, experimental design and execution, recording and analyzing result, and drawing conclusions from that data and analysis. There are growers in the cannabis community who can get research quality data and conclusions, but those individuals use the scientific method (which includes equipment and methods borrowed from academia) to get this information. There are also growers who find neat stuff through trial and error, but even they usually employ a form systematic approach for this, and those that don't typically do not get taken seriously by the community, even if its found later to be a neat find through more rigorous research methods.

So trying to say that I have to choose between the cannabis community and the academic community is pretty illogical, because a significant subset of serious growers in the cannabis community are essentially an ad-hoc extension of the academic community.

Again, I'm not sure why you are ignoring the facts of my posts, or at the very least checking up by googling fasciation, polyploidy, phyllotaxy, and reading about the general terms, and not just cannabis-specific examples. Additionally, you are ignoring my attempts to quell this apparent dick-measuring contest you've decided we're engaged in. Again, I'm sorry for stepping on your toes by knowing more about this particular topic, but you're kinda singling me out and being a dick about this, even though its clear you don't know what you're talking about, maybe you should reflect on your own ego before making an ass of yourself on the forums. :shrug:


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT

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OfflineRider420
Stranger


Registered: 06/21/17
Posts: 518
Last seen: 26 days, 2 hours
Re: White widow LIL POLYPLOID! [Re: Data]
    #853875 - 12/16/21 03:11 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Wow thanks for the confirmation about who you are and what you are about by insulting me.

While I smoke a joint and try to help people enjoy what they do you worry about being perfect. That's just something I've never seen in anyone I've ever smoked with but the majority of non smokers I know are like that.

FYI you know that stoned people make more mistakes then straight people its a fact! So why do you smoke cannabis if its your goal to be right all the time? Fair question.

Good luck buddy and merry Christmas

Edited by Rider420 (12/16/21 03:38 PM)

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