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Offlinereelinguniverse
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New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions
    #826422 - 06/14/17 07:41 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Hello, I am new to the community and what brought me here is that I am new to growing and I think my plant is beginning to show signs of some stress and want to hear what people with more experience seem to think. My setup is just a singular plant. It is in a simple space bucket with a 150w UFO LED with pc fans for intake and exhaust. The light is currently 20in off the top of the plants, per manufacturer recommendation and is being ran on an 18hr light cycle. It was grown with bag seed so that part is a total wild card. It is a coco and perlite grow and it is being fed with General Hydro's Flora Series with calmag. It has been water as needed, when the top inch is drying out. Every other watering it gets fed, that is 50% of the time. I have two issues; first, it just began it's third week of veg growth and only has 5 nodes and it really seems like it ought to be taller by now but I am not sure. Also, two of the bottom leaves, not the starter ones, but on the bottom node, have started to yellow at the tips and at the very tips have become dry and dead. They did not come off with a gentle tug and the rest of the leaf feels healthy closer to the stem. The rest of the plant looks healthy and has a nice, vibrant green color.

I was thinking the light may not be intense enough and that it may be growing slow and that the bottom yellowing could indicate a nitrogen deficiency and that the feed schedule may need to be adjusted but I don't want to burn the plant. Also, the leaves aren't otherwise coming off and the plant looks good. Any advice on how to tweak this setup would be appreciated. Thank you.


Edited by reelinguniverse (06/14/17 07:44 PM)


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: reelinguniverse]
    #826425 - 06/14/17 08:52 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

do you have any photos?

Your LED is probably only 75watts. I bet you could get it closer without having any issues. Most LED's are mislabeled for marketing.


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Offlinereelinguniverse
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: phychotron]
    #826426 - 06/14/17 09:35 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)
Log in to view attachment

Hello and thanks for the reply. I was suspicious of the manufacturer as I did look into LED's before buying and realize the unbranded sort of cheapy UFO's are not the best but I figured it would work with the space limits and since it is only the one plant. I will consider that I have some photos of the yellowing I am seeing and one of the whole plant. I attached some pics in a zip.


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: reelinguniverse]
    #826428 - 06/15/17 03:28 AM (4 months, 22 hours ago)

there's an upload image function that will work better.

otherwise looks normal. Those lowest leaves will do that from time to time. Its part of learning how to feed properly, adjust pH, and temperature/humidity. if its coco/perlite you'll want to feed every watering and just adjust the strength. Best to feed nutrients all the time than plain water with coco. Water to 10-20% runoff and water when the medium has used 50% of the water. pH 6.0.

Runoff is not wasting. Its important to flush the waste products that the roots produce.


it looks like you have a dense indica, it will stay short and probably not stretch much.


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“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


Edited by phychotron (06/15/17 03:31 AM)


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Offlinereelinguniverse
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: phychotron]
    #826476 - 06/16/17 03:30 PM (3 months, 30 days ago)

Helpful, Phychotron, thanks for posting back to me. I know that was a silly way to get the images on there but I couldn't get jpegs to upload, sorry. Anyhow, I have been letting it run off pretty well to avoid salts building up in there. I was following a guide and tweaking based on my space and budget constraints but have giving the plant ph'd water every other watering per the guide's advice. I am no expert, so I could believe it may be better to give more nutrients with this setup but if I give it all the time, do I not risk burning it? If I tweak these things now will it stress the plant? Also, since it seems a bit small still, how can I extend veg? I have heard of others doing this. I had followed a schedule but with it possibly being thrown off, I am unsure when a good stopping point is for veg.


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: reelinguniverse]
    #826478 - 06/16/17 04:21 PM (3 months, 30 days ago)

:takingnotes:


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: KenInVic]
    #826481 - 06/16/17 06:08 PM (3 months, 30 days ago)

You'll have to learn the plant on when to flip it into flower. If you do it now it will stay short and not produce nearly much. You can expect the plant to get 2-3x taller, or more depending on variables.

A consistent ppm with proper runoff shouldn't burn the plants. Burn occurs from a few things, lack of runoff, pH, temperature/humidity (leaves evaporating too much water too fast leaving nutrients in leaves), and rarely from just plain too high ppm. The theory is you just constantly give it fresh nutrients in the proper pH range the whole time and you won't mess your root zone up with waste products from the plant and you NEVER need to flush. Canna recommends never feeding plain water until the very end.

You'll find a good balance of what your plant wants in terms of ppm. You'll adjust it as the flower period continues into P-K week. 5-900ppm should keep your plants from burning if your watering properly.

The very tips of the leaves are indications that you've got burn starting. Burn starts at the tips and works its way. Everything else is deficiency. Usually from too little food, but could also be a lock-out situation where you have the waste products from the plant interacting with the nutrients (usually from not enough runoff) and making certain things unavailable. Check the ppm and pH of the runoff when your watering from time to time to make sure its not some insane number. ppm should be lower or about the same of the feed. pH should be about the same.

Coco usually needs extra Ca/Mg to help with the nutrient uptake. A cal-mag supliment would probably be beneficial but not always needed. It stabilized the pH of the nutrients and will prevent it from changing rapidly.

I think if you upload a zip in the image upload box it will create an album. I've never tried it but that was suppose to be the easy way to upload multiple images awhile ago.


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“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineTheman
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: phychotron]
    #826487 - 06/17/17 02:34 AM (3 months, 29 days ago)

"leaves evaporating too much water too fast leaving nutrients in leave""
Coco usually needs extra Ca/Mg to help with the nutrient uptake "false if you dont know please dont spread mis info.  Calcium can be needed in coco but not for the reason you said.  Just think if have a plant humid few weeks cloudy then all of a sudden windy sunny hot and dry do you really think that change would cause (nutes in substrate the same) a nutrient burn situation?? Facepalm. There are a few mechanisms in plant physiology you arent taking into account. Anyway like always just know enough to be dangerous and based on what you feel is logical. Salt build up in substrate maybe but not in leaves as you said. Please please as a mod do not try and explain things ypu domt umderstand as this perpetuates misinfo!!

Carry on..


Edited by Theman (06/17/17 02:40 AM)


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Theman]
    #826488 - 06/17/17 04:14 AM (3 months, 29 days ago)

Ca/Mg is essential for the CEC properties of coco. It is the driving force of what makes coco so great. Specifically its the Mg that is commonly deficient, and that in turn causes other things to become less available or deficient. Coco gets treated or 'buffered' with ca/mg to displace other salts that are loosly bonded to the substrate. Over time that buffer can become depleted and the unique COCO-Mg-CEC effect is lost. A good coco-specific base nutrient should have all the Mg you need to keep that replenished but some plants still have a demand for more.

yes, excessively hot days can cause nutrient burn. As the plants SUCK down water they pull up lots of nutrients with it. (Check for those brown tips on your leaves as they dry out :wink:) Outdoor plants in soil are a bit different than indoor hydroponics when it comes to climate change. Recall hydroponics have the nutrients readily available, on timers, chelated and ready to be absorbed.

Try reading Canna's 'Cannatalk' magazine on gardening and watering with coco. Its very informative. I like their information because they started the hydroponic-coco trend. Their literature is very professional with no pushy advertising. They focus more on the plant science than actual product placement.


Side note. An enzyme product will keep your root zone clear and make it easier to water. It may seem like a good idea to skip but sometimes after a few weeks the root zone just becomes so dense that the root ball doesn't take water right and pools up and goes off the side. The roots are constantly growing and shedding the outermost layer. Zym keeps that stuff from building up and allows the water to spread evenly and distribute nutrients. Even watering is essential for root zone health. Zyme is something you always have to keep up with, not just spot treatment. If your not using it the whole time you won't see the benefits as much. When I stop feeding nutrients at the end I still feed it enzyme for a few more days before giving it plain water for about a week. Big Time Enzyme is what I like using.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineTheman
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: phychotron]
    #826501 - 06/17/17 03:43 PM (3 months, 29 days ago)

Calcium does not aid in absorbtion of nutrients. Your confusing 2.seperate things. Yes texture of a medium does play a role in absorbtion but thats not what you described. And cant just toss something that makes sense defending something that doesnt talking about seperate things.

No there is no difference with indoor and outdoor as far as nutrient burning from change in humidity. This is wrong based on how plants metabolism works. And you will not find any literature on such a phenomenon you describe. Does not leave "extra" nutrients in the leaves. Please dont spread misinformation! What would chinacat think or forget his name but wrote for erowid aswell. Anyway you are confusing the fact that when plants absorb more it means they are using more. Ie stomata open larger co2 comes in 02 out so if anything they are using MORE nutrients making sugars.

I think perhaps you got your conclusion because of your plants burning from being overly dry and leds to close and getting crispy which is not from nutrient burn from them.leaving nutrients in the leaves! your second post made that more clear you were describing ehat happened with yoir dehumidifier. Again you are incorrect so please only post things you understand and if you dont know say think or maybe. Do not state things as facts when you have zero idea this is how misinfo continues and doing whole community a dis service. No problem with you just the misinfo you spew as a mod when people assume you know what your saying, and you know just enough to be dangerous. Cheers!


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OfflineTheman
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Theman]
    #826502 - 06/17/17 03:48 PM (3 months, 29 days ago)

And think also confused that low transperation can cause nutrient deficiencies which is true but does not mean higher transporation will cause burn. Just not something that will happens.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Theman]
    #826503 - 06/17/17 05:09 PM (3 months, 29 days ago)

You do realize calcium is directly related to 2 brix count.  And higher brix counts does incease the uptake and flow of nutes. Higher brix also aid in mold and mildew resistance.

OMino acids will help the plant uptake calcium faster and in greater amounts.


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Stoneth]
    #826505 - 06/17/17 06:20 PM (3 months, 29 days ago)

Let me see if I can get this straight.  Two TCs with 15 yrs. posting between them vs. ???

My money is on the TCs.


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Theman]
    #826506 - 06/17/17 06:43 PM (3 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Theman said:
Calcium does not aid in absorbtion of nutrients. Your confusing 2.seperate things. Yes texture of a medium does play a role in absorbtion but thats not what you described. And cant just toss something that makes sense defending something that doesnt talking about seperate things.

No there is no difference with indoor and outdoor as far as nutrient burning from change in humidity. This is wrong based on how plants metabolism works. And you will not find any literature on such a phenomenon you describe. Does not leave "extra" nutrients in the leaves. Please dont spread misinformation! What would chinacat think or forget his name but wrote for erowid aswell. Anyway you are confusing the fact that when plants absorb more it means they are using more. Ie stomata open larger co2 comes in 02 out so if anything they are using MORE nutrients making sugars.

I think perhaps you got your conclusion because of your plants burning from being overly dry and leds to close and getting crispy which is not from nutrient burn from them.leaving nutrients in the leaves! your second post made that more clear you were describing ehat happened with yoir dehumidifier. Again you are incorrect so please only post things you understand and if you dont know say think or maybe. Do not state things as facts when you have zero idea this is how misinfo continues and doing whole community a dis service. No problem with you just the misinfo you spew as a mod when people assume you know what your saying, and you know just enough to be dangerous. Cheers!





Please stop posting in this thread. Your side-tracking the OP.

Gauge the audience. Newbs NEED generalized advice.

But to be clear: Ca also has a effect on the coco like the Mg, but is needed in much lower quantities to treat it. Ca and Mg are big fat molecules that stabilize the pH and in turn assist in the uptake of nutrients. When you buy one you generally buy the other as well. This isn't an advanced class on nutrient uptake so don't get so upset if I don't go into the exact details in a thread entitled "new to growing"


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineTheman
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: phychotron]
    #826519 - 06/18/17 07:10 PM (3 months, 28 days ago)

Brix is measure of sugar. Yes healthy plants make more sugar. Ca doesnt increase brix directly and ca does not help in nutrient uptake. Higher brix is because of higher metabolism does not increase metabolism chicken and egg thing

Ya I am fine helping newbs but just dont state things as facts when you have no idea. Just cause sorta make sense in your head doesnt make it true. The whole site was founded on stopping spread of misinformation.

I actually joined this forum the day it started on 420 many moons ago just dif account. So def nevwr trust post count or mod status as could be incorrect info!!


Edited by Theman (06/18/17 09:03 PM)


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Theman]
    #826531 - 06/19/17 12:53 AM (3 months, 28 days ago)

Dude check out Harley Smith's Class on Organic biostinulants.

I'd post a link to youtube but I'm on my phone.  I strongly recommend everyone watching or taking all his classes.

I don't do misinformation. :nonono:  If I'm wrong I admit it.

When you make stocks, stems, branches larger and stronger which you know Ca and Omino acids do, it only makes since that they'll uptake water and nutrients faster.


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Theman]
    #826533 - 06/19/17 05:38 AM (3 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Theman said:
Calcium does not aid in absorbtion of nutrients. Your confusing 2.seperate things. Yes texture of a medium does play a role in absorbtion but thats not what you described. And cant just toss something that makes sense defending something that doesnt talking about seperate things.

No there is no difference with indoor and outdoor as far as nutrient burning from change in humidity. This is wrong based on how plants metabolism works. And you will not find any literature on such a phenomenon you describe. Does not leave "extra" nutrients in the leaves. Please dont spread misinformation! What would chinacat think or forget his name but wrote for erowid aswell. Anyway you are confusing the fact that when plants absorb more it means they are using more. Ie stomata open larger co2 comes in 02 out so if anything they are using MORE nutrients making sugars.




Oh hey, an article describing how calcium ions play a direct role in plant cell's ability to selectively absorb and retain nutrients.

Also, in a high nute setting, higher transpiration rates directly affect the accumulation rate of soluble ions near the site of water loss. This, in extreme cases, can lead to ion toxicity in the leaf margins of older leaves (higher surface area going through transpiration for the longest amount of time). When stomata are fully open for gas exchange, the water loss through the open stomata is directly related to relative humidity and temperature. When more water is lost through the plant tissues, more water is drawn up through the vascular tissue from the roots. In higher temp, low humidity conditions, the rate of water loss (and accumulation of ions like sodium, chloride, and boron) may exceed what the local plant tissues require. This "wicking effect" is what phycho was referring to.

Quote:

Theman said:
Brix is measure of sugar. Yes healthy plants make more sugar. Ca doesnt increase brix directly and ca does not help in nutrient uptake. Higher brix is because of higher metabolism does not increase metabolism chicken and egg thing





Have you ever looked at the structure of the oxygen evolving complex of Photosystem II? There is a calcium ion directly involved in one of the essential photosynthetic steps that ultimately leads to sugar production.

So, what are we arguing about again?


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OfflineTheman
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: Data]
    #826537 - 06/19/17 01:25 PM (3 months, 27 days ago)

There is no study there that says it helps uptake nutrients. Infact 1 study says high calcium lowers permiability of ions lol. And yes u could say any micro nutrient does everything as essential to healthy plant. But adding more calcium does not for our purposes increase uptake of other nutrients.its needed by the plant yes but shouldnt be confused with increased levels making nutrients more abosrbed. Sure gypsum can help soil structure and allow better absorbtion but adding calcium is not the same thing.

There is no graph that shows increase in calcium increases uptake of other nutrien ts! MORE CALCIUM DOES NOT MEAN MORE NUTRIENT UPTAKE. I think because calcium in hydro is from calcium nitrate and adds N adding his calmag maid plants green up fast. Which made him think it was calcium allowing for more nutrient uptake when was just increase in nitrogen.

Because he said brix increases uptake of nutrient. But it is a result of already a healthy plant. There is a difference between a healthy plant that has all it needs and adding calcium to increase uptake directly. Otherwise you could say that for every macro and micro as they make healthier plant makes it uptake more. And calcium is one of the passively absorbed nutes remember.

Once again because something is essential to plant growth does not mean more of it increases uptake of other nutrients directly. As once again you could make that same case for npk co2 h20 micros, mute point. No correlation of increasing levels of calcium and then increase levels of nutrients.

Good talk, everyone learns (myself included) when we argue :smile: cheers


Edited by Theman (06/19/17 01:44 PM)


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Offlinereelinguniverse
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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: phychotron]
    #826543 - 06/19/17 03:58 PM (3 months, 27 days ago)

It is interesting how this post developed a tiny life of its own, removed from the creator's intention that immediately turned into a dispute. Ah, the internet. Anyways, thanks for the suggestions. For what it is worth, I was warned ahead of time that coco grows in particular need CalMag and have been using it the whole grow alongside the flora series. Phychotron, I followed your general advice by lowering the light a few inches and instead of doing the plain PH water flush it was due for, switched to a feed solution and plan to keep that up. While it is difficult to say with full certainty in such a small amount of time and with changing more than one variable at once, the plant already seems to be responding well, growing faster.

I had been following a grow guide aimed at 12 weeks in addition to a week zero before sprouting. I have been adjusting the feed per the guide for each week and this Monday would be the transition week, week 4, if I keep it on schedule but, as stated previously, it seemed sort of small and like it needed the extra time to grow. It now officially has 6 nodes. I was thinking about topping it to three at this point. My follow up questions are these: should I keep it at a veg feed and light cycle and if so, until what other developmental markers are hit before triggering it into bloom? Is now an appropriate time to top in my situation? Thank you all for the help!


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Re: New to growing, few early problems, unsure of the solutions [Re: reelinguniverse]
    #826544 - 06/19/17 04:16 PM (3 months, 27 days ago)

I veg till a foot tall then flip they end up about 3 feet tall. If your planning lst then top it wherever you like and let the side branches grow out till the desired high then flip. They can triple in size in flower.


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