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InvisibleKenInVic
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Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness
    #826593 - 06/21/17 10:56 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Our local tap water is a bit on the soft side at 20ppm.  In his book, "Marijuana Grower's Handbook", Rosenthal suggests somewhere between 125 - 150ppm is ideal.

Is this what you should start with, before adding nutrients, or is it your target after you've finished mixing?  Should I be bringing my tap water up to this range before adding nutrients, via Cal/Mag or some similar amendment?

On the subject of pH; is it
- adjust water pH to proper range for soil or hydro feeding/watering
- add part 1 of nutrients and adjust pH
- add additional nutrients, adjust pH after each
- feed them

Finally, I have seen two ranges for pH, one for soil and one for hydro.  As I will be doing fertigation (Ed Rosenthal term), being coco in 10" pots with hydro fertilizers, which range is the correct one for my use?


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OfflineRider420
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: KenInVic]
    #826599 - 06/21/17 03:32 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Add the nutrients first then adjust the PH. The nutrients will buffer the water's PH the same way harder water buffers the water's PH. Wait at least a few hours or better yet a day and recheck the PH before using it on your plants.

Coco is considered a hydro medium so a PH of about 6 is good but check with the manufactures web page for their suggested PH. Stonewool or rockwool needs a PH of 5.5 to 6.0 depending on the manufacture.

Just wondering are you planning to water having runoff every time or water and then flush once in a while?


Edited by Rider420 (06/21/17 03:35 PM)


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OfflineTheman
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: Rider420]
    #826602 - 06/21/17 04:08 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Are u sure ur tap water is 20ppm? As didnt you say had 20ppm of just calcium. Thats amazingly pure water.

Some people use reverse osmosis water to start with nearly 0ppm.

Ita good to have an ec meter but as long as have ph ur doing good. Dont get too hung up on exact ph as long as in the range your fine as within the medium it will change as nutrients are used up. Slight fluctuations may even be good as allows some nutrients more available as over certain ph ranges some micros are more available. Within reason point being dont stress too much and take drastic action as usually cause more harm then good.

You only adjust ph once everything is mixed up amd stabalized. Then feed.


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: Rider420]
    #826614 - 06/21/17 07:26 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rider420 said:Just wondering are you planning to water having runoff every time or water and then flush once in a while?




It will be drain-to-waste.


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: Theman]
    #826615 - 06/21/17 07:28 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Theman said:
Are u sure ur tap water is 20ppm? As didnt you say had 20ppm of just calcium. Thats amazingly pure water..




Water is so soft here, when you shampoo, even the lather gets a lather.


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Offlinefunky
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: KenInVic]
    #826638 - 06/22/17 09:17 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

20 ppm that's nice, my R.o membrane would last forever at that. My tap is 250 ppm, after R.O it's 5-6 ppm. PH wise I shoot for 5.7-5.8 .
Good luck with the grow


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: funky]
    #827115 - 07/07/17 03:47 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Ca/Mg are are good buffers because they are big fat molecules and resist change. Hard water tends to have a lot of Calcium in it, leaving that white residue (limescale) on things as it dries.


--------------------
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“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineTheman
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: phychotron]
    #827151 - 07/08/17 02:13 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Facepalm.

Ca or mg are not "fat" or large and has nothing to do with the peoperties u are describing.
You need to read up on what buffer is. What acid and bases really are ie what does ph stand for? calcium amd magnesium can be in salts that are acidic or alkaline when placed in water, just fyi.

Read this distinguish atoms elements and molecules. Ie magnesium in solution is not molecules. Molecule is a combination of same or different elements.. see grade 9 chem.
http://education.jlab.org/qa/atoms_and_elements.html

Please again stop misinfo. Think is theman going to have to correct what i say or do i truly understand what i am saying and not a gut feeling. If so, refrain until read up. I get anologies can be used but none of what you said even makes sense. Its not personal i assure you!

And i nees to read on grammer and spellzing..lol


Edited by Theman (07/08/17 02:34 AM)


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: Theman]
    #827162 - 07/08/17 10:17 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Theman said:
Facepalm.

Ca or mg are not "fat" or large and has nothing to do with the peoperties u are describing.
You need to read up on what buffer is. What acid and bases really are ie what does ph stand for? calcium amd magnesium can be in salts that are acidic or alkaline when placed in water, just fyi.

Read this distinguish atoms elements and molecules. Ie magnesium in solution is not molecules. Molecule is a combination of same or different elements.. see grade 9 chem.
http://education.jlab.org/qa/atoms_and_elements.html

Please again stop misinfo. Think is theman going to have to correct what i say or do i truly understand what i am saying and not a gut feeling. If so, refrain until read up. I get anologies can be used but none of what you said even makes sense. Its not personal i assure you!

And i nees to read on grammer and spellzing..lol




The way the buffer in Ca/Mg work is that the outermost electron is gained/lost, and because of the size of the molecule, the electron in the valance shell is further out and at a different energy level than the electrons right near the nucleus.  It can lose or gain an electron without a large swing in electromagnetism. Thus it can hold onto multiple molecules (research inter molecular forces)-- According to my organic chemistry professors who kept repeating it for a year.  When you look at the periodic table you will see they are right above each other, thus have the same orbital configuration.

Water is broken into two parts. OH- and H+. In just plain water you will have H2O, H+ and OH-. Even in neutral water, there will be a certain amount of broken up ions, but appear neutral because of ~equal parts and are held via inter molecular forces to the polar side of water. Adding other molecules to the water will break more or less of those water up, or bind the ions up somehow. Thus changing potential Hydrogen (pH); or how readily available that H+ is.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineTheman
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: phychotron]
    #827182 - 07/08/17 05:26 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Facepalm. Nothing to do with what u stated.

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-ph-of-water-608889 ; this explains how u are incorrect.
And no water is not broken apart. And u clearly dont get what ph is.  Just think, h is hydrogen which is what? A gas and highly flamable water is not that. But if apply electeic current to water u can split the atoms which creates hydrogen and then can be burned. Also lithium aluminum break up water and hense the violent reaction. Plants also use energy to seperate water. Point being no pure water doesnt have free h in it.

Please if u dont understand dont try and explain as it just passes on misinfo. As a mod people not take it with a grain of salt like they should. And u make it sound like u know what your saying.. but you do t. So stop!


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: Theman]
    #827206 - 07/09/17 07:47 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Water totally breaks apart into its ionic constituents.

From your own broken link:
Quote:


"The chemical formula for water usually is written as H2O, but another way to consider the formula is HOH, where a positively charged hydrogen ion H+ is bonded to a negatively charged hydroxide ion OH-. This means water has properties of both an acid and a base, where the properties essentially cancel each other out.

H+ + (OH)- = HOH = H2O = water





a more technical explanation of water dissociation and pH:
http://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/chemical_engineering/Water_dissociation_and_pH.pdf


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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OfflineTheman
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: phychotron]
    #827215 - 07/10/17 12:58 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Lol again no in pure water it does not disassociate into its ionic parts. While yes has h oh in it it does not become that in normal conditions.. ie electrolisis like i said before does break it apart and releases gas..

Did u read any of the links?

If u understand the article you posted you would see water is not h oh floting around with each other. Like i stated yes can seperate but is not normal. As the article says. As again H is a gas sooo if all water was disassociated h oh  it would be flamable gas.. so good try but please stop! Ur wrong stop trying to grab little bits of truths it makes u look worse. As go back to what you originally stated.

Again when ur wrong its best just to admit it and move on and not detract from threads!


Edited by Theman (07/10/17 04:11 PM)


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: Theman]
    #827226 - 07/10/17 09:16 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

To both of you, I could not care less at this point in the thread.  Start your own thread and have it out there.


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: KenInVic]
    #827227 - 07/10/17 09:20 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry, some users tend to be confrontational.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: phychotron]
    #827266 - 07/11/17 10:56 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Getting back on subject, the best thing to do when mixing nutrients is to watch for cloudiness when adding things. Most nutrients will mix up fine, but somethings like P-K or Silica when added will turn cloudy white which may or may not go away. If you see it when you start to mix, stop adding immediately.  Your seeing solids form and your nutrients are going to waste. Even if your seeing it turn white and disappear immediately, solids are forming and either breaking apart or are diluted to the point you can't see them.

Add those problematic nutrients to their own gallon of water or two and adjust the pH separately to within range.

Use a small water pump at the bottom of your tank when mixing nutrients up to ensure your getting a good stir, from bottom to top.

Using R/O water with no Ca/Mg will tend make your pH touchy and hard to adjust. (i like ~100ppm)


Here's my method:

Add water to bucket with pump
Add most nutrients (I add ca/mg first)
check/adjust pH to yellow via pH drops (meters always break or need calibration, expensive and require maintenance)


If adding p-K/silica/problematic nutrients
for P-K I usually just add it last to about gallon of water before mixing in.

Silica requires much more water and a pH adjustment of its own, otherwise its so strong of a base that it turns all nutrients cloudy. So mix separate, adjust pH and add slowly while watching for cloudiness. (I like around 30ppm). If its still cloudy when mixing up it needs to be diluted more beforehand. Sometimes you have to add silica/adjust pH, then add base nutrients that have individually been diluted in some water. Each brand is different, some are highly reactive.

Wait a few minutes and adjust pH again.



When watering coco, Canna recommends watering 10-25% waste when the pot has used 50% of the available water (ranging from twice a day to once every two or three days). Runoff is important because you need to flush the plant waste from the root zone. An Enzyme product is important to help with that, and prevent your root zone from becoming a large water-resistant mat of roots.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein


Edited by phychotron (07/11/17 10:58 PM)


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: phychotron]
    #827269 - 07/12/17 01:37 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

This is going to be drain-to-waste. 3 gal. containers full of coir.

As it's my first attempt, I'll be sticking with the basic regime until I learn more about this plant.  I have a 6-month supply of a three part nute collection consisting of grow, flower and common which came as part of the package.

I suspect I'll run into issues and/or things I'm not understanding along the way as part of the learning curve.  As long as they're not catastrophic, it's all good.  Though I know I'll be a nervous Nellie right up until I spark the first bud.


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Offlinefunky
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: KenInVic]
    #827270 - 07/12/17 01:56 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

It seems they are making it out to be harder than what it is. I run DTW and I use RO water without any issues with pH. Follow the directions on your nutrients about mixing, some have to be added in a certain order to keep  precipitation from happening.  The good thing about coir is if you accidentally mess something up you can flush and start over . You may need to get some cal/mag since your in coir. Grab a cheap pH meter of eBay make sure it has calibration solution,  I've been using one for 8 months and still accurate they may not last 5 years but for 10 bucks or so it's worth replacing every once in a while.
Good luck



Edited by funky (07/12/17 02:12 AM)


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InvisibleKenInVic
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: funky]
    #827280 - 07/12/17 12:38 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Thanks, funky.  I grabbed a ready-to-grow assembly from a local shop and it pretty much had everything with it other than ducting for fans and the scrubbing filter.  The pH meter they provided looks solid and came with both calibration and storage solutions.  I purchased the TDS meter of the same brand in addition, just to have all my bases covered.


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Offlinefunky
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: KenInVic]
    #827283 - 07/12/17 01:31 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Hell yeah, sounds like you're set then .
Now pop some beans and get growing. I popped 5 ace of spades from tga subcool the other day fingers crossed for the more colorful pheno. Good luck .


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OfflineTheman
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Re: Tap Water, Nutrients and Hardness [Re: funky]
    #827292 - 07/12/17 02:53 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Ooo ace of spades thought thats been sold out for a long time.. somethin about black cherry soda that soumds suoer awesome.


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