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thedrake
N00B
Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 101
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phenotypes?
#723759 - 03/29/14 04:37 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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on average how many different phenotypes are there per cannabis strain?
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drawde
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 5,268
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake] 1
#723760 - 03/29/14 04:49 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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I'm pretty sure that's something that is just about impossible to nail down. Phenotypes of what trait? All of them? What would constitute a difference? It's more like a gradient. Also take into consideration all the combinations of traits. Some being more independent and others dependent on other traits. In short... a vast number.
-------------------- King Koopa said: The amount of pot that Gask smokes is equivalent to a guy shooting heroin on weekends
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake] 1
#723767 - 03/29/14 05:24 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
thedrake said: on average how many different phenotypes are there per cannabis strain?
Theoretically, infinity. It just really boils down to how specific you want to get. You could have an identical twin and technically be different phenotypes if his fingernails just grow a little faster than yours.
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thedrake
N00B
Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 101
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ok im starting to understand....i think. im getting some seeds, and im wondering how many of each strain i should plant for the most chances of getting a plant that most resembles its parents.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake]
#723773 - 03/29/14 05:58 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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That's a tough question. If the seeds are from a reputable breeder then all 10 seeds should be really close to the description, but some strains (like Flo for example) are huge crapshoots where you have to pop 40 seeds and hope you get a single pheno worth keeping.
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Stoneth
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Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 24,985
Loc: No where ville, USA
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake]
#723778 - 03/29/14 06:12 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
thedrake said: on average how many different phenotypes are there per cannabis strain?
OK this in one of those questions, Magash loves to point out the shady ways of today's breeders.
If the breeder does their work, and stabilizes their strain. Then normally three with the occasional fourth or fifth showing it's head. But these types of breeders are dying off and hard as hell to find honestly. Most just refuse to put the time and work into their strains these days.
In fact many breeders now sell what is known as f1's. And there pretty much isn't nothing stable about an f1.
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drawde
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 5,268
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Stoneth]
#723784 - 03/29/14 06:46 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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So who does?
-------------------- King Koopa said: The amount of pot that Gask smokes is equivalent to a guy shooting heroin on weekends
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Stoneth
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: drawde]
#723788 - 03/29/14 08:00 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Well honestly it'll take someone with a bit more time and experience than me to fully answer that question.
The only ones I've found personally are Serious Seeds, DJ Short, and Mr. Nice. I know there are others, but I only speak from experience and I haven't experienced the others rumored to do such.
Hopefully Mag or 81ren will pop in. They stay more up to date on these things.
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Stoneth]
#723801 - 03/30/14 03:05 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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I just grew out a clone that was purchased for $10,000. My buddy wasn't suppose to give out his friends special cut but I just happened to need clones at the time he had a few extra. $10k might sound like a lot but to a serious grower doing many pounds at a time thats really only ~4lbs for the cut. Plus the search for that perfect pheno could cost you that much in seeds and years worth of effort trying out plants.
The struggle for that super dank one in a million seed that shows all others to shame is a hard one. Every once in awhile you come across that person with that bud that is super fire and makes you rethink how dank bud can get. That comes from a guy who's found his plant. Its where these legendary strains come from, and the reason why they are usually 'clone only' because they want to keep that specific plants DNA. You can order the cup winning seeds from the banks but you have to go through and find that elusive cup winning pheno.
This bud is some fire, super nice dense indica with great flavor, all the nuggets are solid even the ones toward the lower branches was nugged up well. I also had the light much higher than I should have because of 2-seeds-turned sativa. They were about 18" lower than I normally have them (so about 3' away)
The structure in veg was superb and I knew it was going to do well. I had to put them into flower a little earlier than I like and they stayed short but kicked so much ass. I'm going to try and get that one again and maybe do a more serious run with it.
With all that aside, there are generally just a few main phenotypes, I'd guess about ~1-6 depending on the strain. You'll find that even though one plant might not have grown the fastest or grew the largest buds, but the flavor is off the charts. You have to separate all the buds from all the plants and dry/cure separately and sample before you can honestly choose which one you want to keep as a mother. Its a lot of work but worth it when you find the one thats good enough.
http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/GrapeGod/Next_Generation_Seed_Company/ thats got a lot of strain lineage, and it also has a "known phenotypes" in the top right.
-------------------- Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED “Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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hamloaf
Biometric Precursor.
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 179
Loc: Back in the USSR.
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Stoneth]
#723815 - 03/30/14 07:45 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stoneth said:
Quote:
thedrake said: on average how many different phenotypes are there per cannabis strain?
OK this in one of those questions, Magash loves to point out the shady ways of today's breeders.
If the breeder does their work, and stabilizes their strain. Then normally three with the occasional fourth or fifth showing it's head. But these types of breeders are dying off and hard as hell to find honestly. Most just refuse to put the time and work into their strains these days.
In fact many breeders now sell what is known as f1's. And there pretty much isn't nothing stable about an f1.
That's some fuckin' bullshit!
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: hamloaf]
#723840 - 03/30/14 09:21 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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But f1's are extremely vigorous growing plants. There are reasons for growing them.
And this 10,000 for a clone is fucking bullshit. Anyone who would pay that is fucking retarded. And anyone who would charge that is a huge fucking douchebag.
-------------------- Dude she isn't as young as she use to be. -niteowl
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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As mentioned Serious Seeds, DJ Short, and Mr. Nice are all good as are Soma, Sensi. There is a old company that many have forgotten about including myself till I recently saw a grow with one of their strains is Sagarmatha Seeds.
I'd stay away from Dutch Passion, Green House, and most the other Amsterdam companies cause they use mostly F1s. Now as Hawk said there are plenty of good reasons to use them esp if you're hunting down breeding material.
Its the guys that sell F1's but tell you that their seeds will do this or have that taste and so on yet they forget to tell you about having to hunt down the strains that have that taste or trait you're looking for in a ton of phenos. The closest to getting a plant like the original is if it was selfed or S1. That is when pollen taken from a female (not from a hermie that is false. I've explained the process before) and used on itself. You can treat just one branch of a plant to get female pollen and use it on the rest of the plant. yadda yadda yadda........
-------------------- All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature? Join us at the Growery!
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said: And this 10,000 for a clone is fucking bullshit. Anyone who would pay that is fucking retarded. And anyone who would charge that is a huge fucking douchebag.
Some people are really bad hoarders of strains. One guy wouldn't hook me up with a Blackberry clone until he left town. But its not that expensive if you have 50lbs coming in and someone takes 4 to upgrade your cut of weed an extra notch or two. Cost is merely a matter of grower scale. Its well worth it for one of those premium pheno's. This one truly is a great cut. It grows and smokes like a boss.
But ya, still douchebaggery at play, its just a plant and it would be nice if people would share.
-------------------- Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED “Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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I understand how the cost could be insignificant depending on your grow size. But either way it's unbelievably stupid.
-------------------- Dude she isn't as young as she use to be. -niteowl
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Word. But as I sit here and smoke this bowl I'm glad the guy bought it.
-------------------- Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED “Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Stoneth
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Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 24,985
Loc: No where ville, USA
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: hamloaf]
#723883 - 03/30/14 02:19 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
hamloaf said:
Quote:
Stoneth said:
Quote:
thedrake said: on average how many different phenotypes are there per cannabis strain?
OK this in one of those questions, Magash loves to point out the shady ways of today's breeders.
If the breeder does their work, and stabilizes their strain. Then normally three with the occasional fourth or fifth showing it's head. But these types of breeders are dying off and hard as hell to find honestly. Most just refuse to put the time and work into their strains these days.
In fact many breeders now sell what is known as f1's. And there pretty much isn't nothing stable about an f1.
That's some fuckin' bullshit!
Really? Then by all means educate me. I know I don't know all, but I'm always willing to learn.
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hamloaf
Biometric Precursor.
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 179
Loc: Back in the USSR.
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Stoneth]
#723889 - 03/30/14 03:43 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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No. Wait. What? Haha, I was saying that it is bullshit that the breeders these days don't really take the years it takes to stabilize a strain yet don't advertise that they are selling F1's and or are straight up lying passing their F1's off as stabilized strains. Not that what you were saying is bullshit, lol.
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Stoneth
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 24,985
Loc: No where ville, USA
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: hamloaf]
#723892 - 03/30/14 03:49 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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OK you just threw me off there a bit.
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Stoneth]
#723904 - 03/30/14 04:18 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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It threw me off as well.
-------------------- Dude she isn't as young as she use to be. -niteowl
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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That's why I hate the seed hunt, I wish there was a way to just always grab the clone genetics.
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Stoneth
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 24,985
Loc: No where ville, USA
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said: That's why I hate the seed hunt, I wish there was a way to just always grab the clone genetics.
This a thousand times over. If I had access to proven clone genetics, I'd never pop a seed again.
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thedrake
N00B
Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 101
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Stoneth]
#723954 - 03/30/14 07:41 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said: As mentioned Serious Seeds, DJ Short, and Mr. Nice are all good as are Soma, Sensi. There is a old company that many have forgotten about including myself till I recently saw a grow with one of their strains is Sagarmatha Seeds.
I'd stay away from Dutch Passion, Green House, and most the other Amsterdam companies cause they use mostly F1s. Now as Hawk said there are plenty of good reasons to use them esp if you're hunting down breeding material.
Its the guys that sell F1's but tell you that their seeds will do this or have that taste and so on yet they forget to tell you about having to hunt down the strains that have that taste or trait you're looking for in a ton of phenos. The closest to getting a plant like the original is if it was selfed or S1. That is when pollen taken from a female (not from a hermie that is false. I've explained the process before) and used on itself. You can treat just one branch of a plant to get female pollen and use it on the rest of the plant. yadda yadda yadda........
i may be wrong but iirc i remember you talking down about somas seeds. or maybe it was the way he produces his fem seeds. are you saying all his seeds are good or just the regular? ok you confused me a bit with the f1 and s1 stuff, the place i ordered from doesnt say if they are f1 or s1. except for the freebies that im getting with my order, one is called kosher kush s1 and another freebie im getting is called tangie s1. the rest of the seeds im getting doesnt say if they are f1,f2, or s1.
heres the breeders and strains that i ordered, heavyweight seeds: budzilla/fem. and strawberry cheesecake/fem greenhouse seeds: white rhino/fem. cream of the crop seeds: sour turbo diesel/fem. i know greenhouse seeds are not a very reputable seed bank but the whole order was a group buy and this is what 1 guy wanted. i tried telling him to pick seeds froma different breeder but i could not convince him. oh well im not the one whos going to end up with a bunch of hermies or questionable genetics.
the freebies im getting, the website only gave me the strain names so i have no idea who/where they came from.or if they are fem. or regular.they are:
animal cookies girl scout cookies kosher kush s1 tangie s1 kosher kush X girl scout cookies tangie kosher kush cherry bomb/fem
so is it safe to assume that the seeds not marked as f1 or s1 are seeds from selfed plants?
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake]
#723955 - 03/30/14 08:03 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
i may be wrong but iirc i remember you talking down about somas seeds. or maybe it was the way he produces his fem seeds.
You are exactly right. I hate the way he makes his fems but he has great genetics. His regulars are pretty killer.
Ok as for the breeders if they are S1s or fems they are gonna tell you. The same goes for F2s they are going to tell you and in most cases F2s will cost less. If a breeder has a strain of the same name as another breeder it's usually a knock off or a F2 of the original breeders strain.
Example many banks sell a version of blueberry. The true version is from DJ Short cause he is the original breeder.
S1s are fems by the way.
-------------------- All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature? Join us at the Growery!
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thedrake
N00B
Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 101
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: Magash]
#723965 - 03/30/14 10:16 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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yeah the seeds that i paid for told me if they were regular or feminized. none of them said f1 or s1 or s1 in the description. but i think im understanding this a little bit better. F1s are the first generation of seeds produced from distinctly different parental types. which produce seeds that are homozygous for the most part. now is it up to the breeder to make sure that the parents are homozygous enough to produce homozygous f1 seeds?or are all F1s homozygous enough to produce plants that resembles their parents? are all regular cannabis seeds homozygous F1s? (ex1: say you took two seeds of dj shorts blueberry. one turned out to be a male(wit phenotype XX and a with a female phenotype XX. now if you pollinated the bb female with the bb male. would the resulting seeds be homozygous F1s, or Heterozygous F1s or just some F2s that could give you offspring that resemble mom or dad or most likely a wide mix of the two? F2s are the offspring of two f1 seeds/plants mating?
now with the S1s, are all fems. S1s? or just all S1s are fems.? im thinking that the S1s are only the seeds that were produce by forcing the female to produce female pollen, and then using that pollen to pollinate a different plant that came from the same mother?
nvmd me saying im starting to understand. the more i read into the more confusing it gets. thanks for the help guys, you guys are really helping me understand this stuff. man i dont remember learning about Gregor Mendeland his pea expierments back in the 4th grade to be this hard and cunfusing..................................................................................if i wasnt on cannabis,etizolam,ethylphenidate, and kratom when i was trying to learn it might be a bit easier. :crazy3 :cryng: sorry for all questions
Edited by thedrake (03/30/14 11:10 PM)
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said: That's why I hate the seed hunt, I wish there was a way to just always grab the clone genetics.
Thats how my buddy got the $10k cut, he was asked to take care of the plants and he took a quick snip on a lower branch.
-------------------- Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED “Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: phychotron] 2
#723979 - 03/31/14 01:47 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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That man is an evil genius
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake] 1
#723981 - 03/31/14 02:58 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
or are all F1s homozygous enough to produce plants that resembles their parents?
Nope. You have to go threw a ton of phenos
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are all regular cannabis seeds homozygous F1s?
Nope.
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ex1: say you took two seeds of dj shorts blueberry. one turned out to be a male(wit phenotype XX and a with a female phenotype XX. now if you pollinated the bb female with the bb male. would the resulting seeds be homozygous F1s, or Heterozygous F1s or just some F2s that could give you offspring that resemble mom or dad or most likely a wide mix of the two?
F2 with a wide mix of the two
Quote:
now with the S1s, are all fems. S1s? or just all S1s are fems.?
All S1s are fems but not all fems are S1s. You can also have F1 fems.
-------------------- All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature? Join us at the Growery!
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: phenotypes? [Re: thedrake]
#724046 - 03/31/14 12:12 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
thedrake said: yeah the seeds that i paid for told me if they were regular or feminized. none of them said f1 or s1 or s1 in the description. but i think im understanding this a little bit better. F1s are the first generation of seeds produced from distinctly different parental types. which produce seeds that are homozygous for the most part. now is it up to the breeder to make sure that the parents are homozygous enough to produce homozygous f1 seeds?or are all F1s homozygous enough to produce plants that resembles their parents? are all regular cannabis seeds homozygous F1s? (ex1: say you took two seeds of dj shorts blueberry. one turned out to be a male(wit phenotype XX and a with a female phenotype XX. now if you pollinated the bb female with the bb male. would the resulting seeds be homozygous F1s, or Heterozygous F1s or just some F2s that could give you offspring that resemble mom or dad or most likely a wide mix of the two? F2s are the offspring of two f1 seeds/plants mating?
now with the S1s, are all fems. S1s? or just all S1s are fems.? im thinking that the S1s are only the seeds that were produce by forcing the female to produce female pollen, and then using that pollen to pollinate a different plant that came from the same mother?
nvmd me saying im starting to understand. the more i read into the more confusing it gets. thanks for the help guys, you guys are really helping me understand this stuff. man i dont remember learning about Gregor Mendeland his pea expierments back in the 4th grade to be this hard and cunfusing..................................................................................if i wasnt on cannabis,etizolam,ethylphenidate, and kratom when i was trying to learn it might be a bit easier. :crazy3 :cryng: sorry for all questions
Cannabis doesn't act differently than any other organism on the planet as far as chromosomal division goes. If you lay out the Punnett Square it'll give you a general idea. In your example with both parents being bb you'd have a homozygous offspring with the progeny resembling a fairly even mix of both parents, but if one or both of the parents is Bb or BB (which is very likely if you get the seeds from a "pollen chucker") then you'll have a wildly heterozygous array of offspring.
B b B) BB Bb b) Bb bb
In that example you end up with every possible array due to the non stabilized genotypes leading to unpredictable phenotypic expression. A good breeder will find the traits he likes (large single cola, and citrusy smell for example) and pollinate that mother with strong male pollen. He will then grow out the seeds from that, choose the females that most closely resemble that mother and then re-pollinate. This process repeats until every seed that's produced (for the most part) has those desirable traits. That's what everyone means when they say a stabilized strain.
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P-O
Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 17,891
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Great thread guys... def a good read
Makes sense why cutts are more dependable, and why some growers dont wanna share their genetics. fuck payin 10k for a cutting imo.
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