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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro]
    #630929 - 07/08/12 12:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You dont need 8" fan for 1 1000 watter. 4" is meant for 400-600 watters. Not that insufficient air exchange is less of a problem with led's.

You dont NEED an oscillating fan with hid's either. It just moves the air better and doesnt whaste space under the lights like your tower fan. also its way quiter.




Good luck cooling a 600 with a 4 inch fan.
My experience says no less than 6 inch.
Proper air exchange is needed no matter the light source.

An oscillating fan help with stem and limb strength.  Allowing the plant to better support itself.  It also keeps the air moving around the leaves allowing the plant to breath easily.


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OfflineMaestro
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Re: upgrade [Re: Stoneth]
    #630935 - 07/08/12 12:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I guess I'm misinformed too ._.

according to the manufacturer my 4in fan can work for a 6x6x5 space with a carbon filter attached. I knew that was bs, but figured it not thaaat much less.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro]
    #630937 - 07/08/12 12:31 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That's 180 cubic feet.
A 4 inch fan is like 170 to 190 cfm.
You want to at least change the air 2x per minute, I recommend 5x or greater.


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: upgrade [Re: Stoneth]
    #630939 - 07/08/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Air exchange  :lolsy:  I just run a CO2 producer....but then my area isn't suitable for a bunch of air exchange.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #630942 - 07/08/12 12:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've got a co2 generator that I've never used.
Maybe when I get back on my feet I'll give it a try.


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro]
    #630966 - 07/08/12 03:35 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Maestro said:
Lol cmon man.

You say how bad the cheap fixtures are and you only had success with 2000$ worth of led's yourself.

So how can you tell someone to go l.e.d. but not go all out? (yes, to me 2000$ is all out.)

Not to mention that you never used hid's, so you can't real

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Offlinepunkrocker292004
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Re: upgrade [Re: phychotron]
    #630991 - 07/08/12 09:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

great contribution stoneth didnt know a fan helps with stem strength


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Re: upgrade [Re: phychotron]
    #630995 - 07/08/12 10:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

phychotron said:
Quote:

Maestro said:
Lol cmon man.

You say how bad the cheap fixtures are and you only had success with 2000$ worth of led's yourself.

So how can you tell someone to go l.e.d. but not go all out? (yes, to me 2000$ is all out.)

Not to mention that you never used hid's, so you can't real






Did you have a point to this??


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OfflineMaestro
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Re: upgrade [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #631004 - 07/08/12 11:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i was gonna purchase
this

or the 400 watt version money is tight im gonna have to save a couple months to get either




Quote:

LED buds are great, you just gotta get a good fixture. There is 99% junk/marketing out there.



Is it not bad advice to tell someone who's not in a position to spend a lot of money to get L.E.D.'s? After everything bad he said about cheap fixtures in the other thread...

And i missed this before:
Quote:

i broke down and went with the 600 and can see everyone is working on a consensus. like it was just said, 2x the light for 1.5x the electricity is hard to beat.




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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #631012 - 07/09/12 01:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
Quote:

phychotron said:
Quote:

Maestro said:
Lol cmon man.

You say how bad the cheap fixtures are and you only had success with 2000$ worth of led's yourself.

So how can you tell someone to go l.e.d. but not go all out? (yes, to me 2000$ is all out.)

Not to mention that you never used hid's, so you can't real






Did you have a point to this??




server failure mid post... apparently it cut off mid-quote and everything I said. I kept trying to check it but the board was acting up.

I never said that anything under $2000 is unsuccessful. My first grow was almost 4 oz on 130watts of led for under $300. The blackstar is borderline cheap/effective. It works, but their are higher quality fixtures out there for only slightly more $/watts(actual draw). It was the initial success with the cheaper blackstar fixtures that made me continue with LED. The $2000 price tag is what it will take to put two 400w diamond series in a 4x4 area to maximize available light and reduce clutter.  No regrets spending the money, it's because cash is tight that I chose to go LED and not have to deal with higher operating and maintenance costs. Some people cant do the math or only think month-to-month. I would have had to stop growing if a bulb blew out when cash was tight, or when my electricity was almost shut off.

Instead of giving my money to the power company I chose the wise route of actually getting something out of it.
Similar to buying a house vs. renting, in one your throwing your money away every month, but you still get the 'product'. Sure, one took a large down payment, but you actually get more for your money. By spending it your saving it... hard concept for a lot to grasp. What's the word for that... invest?  A penny saved is a penny earned - Ben Franklin. Does that mean I eventually EARN money from it? yes, according to him.

Like I've been saying, you don't need to go balls out in the beginning, you can slowly convert to LED if funding is an issue. LED can go right next to your HID, it's not like you absolutely, positively have to swap them out. Early LED advise was that you had to run it side by side to your HID. upgrading/new growers are the prime beneficiaries of LED for it's simplicity. I was able to start growing in a sealed room with no ventilation at first, saving money on fans at the time

My experience with HID does not hinder my ability to weigh the pros and cons. How much experience do you haters have with LED to back up your claims? Having grown clones from a friends HID garden I found the bud to be larger, denser and more flavorful. His garden is always having HID related issues, like the light was way too close, or the air conditioner broke, or the bulb went out and he didn't realize it. or he cant leave the house for very long.

I understand the skepticism as the market is flooded with bold claims and junk products. It's not that I'm being sold on the bullshit, it's that I'm seeing through it and going to the people who are building lights for high-demand plants. Those 90w LED to 400w HID claims might apply to stuff like lettuce, but not buds. The balance between quality/price is where most manufactures fall short, there are only a few people developing LED's with our interests in mind and building their product directly around our feedback. Many of the fixtures on ebay for example are just theoretical components put together in an attempt to sell you a new futuristic product. You cant judge the market by being flooded by low quality Chinese fixtures and then the shitty results people got with them because they didn't do their research or intentionally thought they could somehow beat 'going cheap.'

I'm not trying to argue LED > HID and vice versa (that would take all day and then some), but the idea that LED's don't work is a misplaced and antiquated opinion. With the proper equipment you can get spectacular results. The cost:benefit ratio is good and an overall good investment despite the higher initial costs.  Lets just say that starting now, there are some LED fixtures out there that can produce good results on par with HID. Could you guys at lease accept the chance that maybe LED has reached a new milestone?


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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein

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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro]
    #631013 - 07/09/12 01:36 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Maestro said:

It takes reasearch to realise you need to invest a lot of $ into something thats going to be twice as cheap in a year. Im saving more money waiting for bbetter l.e.d's while you fund the reasearch by paying for prototypes. Which is great, but only for someone who has no $ issues.




I do this with buying a new computer, eventually you have to pick a point and make a purchase. Its perfectly understandable to not go out and upgrade to the newest stuff when you have a system that works. I'm not saying everyone needs to rush out and buy LED's, I understand that its probably cheaper to continue running what you have for X months until the price drops to where not upgrading costs more than your current system. New/upgrading gardeners stand to benefit the most buying fixtures now since it will probably save on other equipment such as an air conditioner. The prototype issue is somewhat null when getting a quality fixture, but prices will continue to drop and power increase, it's just the nature of the technology. It's advancing like computer equipment, not like gardening equipment.

The future of LED's in general is great. They have doubled in power every 36 months since the 1960's. But the global energy 'crisis' is putting a huge spotlight on them as the future of lighting technology. You can actually buy an LED light bulb at a lot of stores these days for around $20-$30.


--------------------
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“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein

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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Pilze]
    #631019 - 07/09/12 02:12 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pilze said:
my hydro store stopped carrying them years ago. if you try to order one theyll try to talk you out of it. for YOUR sake.





I agree with that completely, they only get what's in their catalog, which is not very good. They are right to talk you out of those cheap/overpriced fixtures. They get those returned almost every time. My hydro store told me the same story. You have to get one from one of the few dealers that are building what the customer actually wants.

Your one of the perfect candidates for LED if your heat is maxed out with at 400W. Photons don't' cool off in the air, they bombard the surface and turn to heat, which has to transfer to the air, the rate determined by the surface/air temperature difference. With LED most the heat is dissipated out the top and sucked away with ventilation.

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
He didn't want LED.  You need to learn that not everyone wants to go that route.




I actually didn't hear a preference, just that he is upgrading was thinking of an hid package. In my experience LED has been good and I'm just trying to share that. No one's ever going to want to go that route if they never hear anything positive about it :wink:


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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
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OfflineMaestro
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Re: upgrade [Re: phychotron]
    #631023 - 07/09/12 03:32 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I DONT have expirience in L.E.D. All I said about them I took from your posts.
However, I don't go around claiming HID is "better" then l.e.d...

how often does an ac break down? Doesnt take a greenthumb to know, not too often.
How often does a good hps bulb just go out? idk, but from research I know to replace it after 2 harvests, not when it goes out.


How do l.e.d's reduce cluster?


You said "almost 4 oz off 130watts". Well theres plenty of HID grows that get .8g/watt.


How does the idea of always upgrading chime with that Ben F. thing? Instead of paying rent you buy a house...and then buy another house and another?


My whole point is that spending even your initial 300$ on a Blackstar is not a good investment FOR someone who is tight on cash. A budget is a budget: it has limits.

one last question:
Do you think spending an extra 100$ to get l.e.d. lighting would make up for the loss of yield, if you had to spend 100$ less on sub+nutes+additives, or 100$ less on seeds (use bag seed)? Just 2 examples..


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Offlinepunkrocker292004
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro] * 1
    #631032 - 07/09/12 06:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i like hid it makes me happy in the winter feels like sun on my skin led looks cool and is from what i understand low heat and electric efficient and the diodes last like a long time but its extremely expensive 

ill prob never buy led unless they come down to the price of hid's
:shrug:


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OfflineMaestro
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Re: upgrade [Re: punkrocker292004]
    #631039 - 07/09/12 08:18 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Good point.
Phychotron, do you need to use heaters in the winter?


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro]
    #631062 - 07/09/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Maestro said:
Good point.
Phychotron, do you need to use heaters in the winter?





Yes, I have my lights somewhat rigged to heat my house during that period, but the baseboards still kick on from time to time, mostly in the living room though.  I live in an extremely cold area in the winter and fairly hot in the summer. it's been in 90+ in the daytime when the lights are off and my plants aren't liking it too much. Even at night it takes a long ass time to cool my apartment. I need an air conditioner maybe 20 days in the summer, but not 20 consistent days.



Quote:

Maestro said:
I DONT have expirience in L.E.D. All I said about them I took from your posts.
However, I don't go around claiming HID is "better" then l.e.d...




buy saying one sucks your saying one is better. If you can't take my lack of personal experience then why should I accept yours? "better" for LED is determined on the individual basis, by the grower. Everyone knows HID works, but what they don't know is that there is a perfectly good alternative emerging in the market that is able to compete with it. HID's been around for quite some time and it's well known technology. I took all those years of experience and weighed the options and in my case it's much much simpler and cost effective to use LED.

I really don't want to argue HID-LED, but I do want to help stop the spread of disinformation. "We help spread accurate information about marijuana so people can make informed decisions..."

Quote:


how often does an ac break down? Doesnt take a greenthumb to know, not too often.
How often does a good hps bulb just go out? idk, but from research I know to replace it after 2 harvests, not when it goes out.




It's not the frequency, it's the risk of it. More equipment=more risk, plain and simple. Not having to buy the extra equipment also saves money :wink:.  I live in the middle of nowhere, it's a long drive to get supplies *should a problem arise*. You seriously buy a new bulb every 4 months? how much do they cost per? It was those reoccurring cost that helped influence my decision--I'm on a tight budget.  There are also other drawbacks that i didn't go into, like no misting around hot bulbs or hot starts or the fire hazard it presents. Sure, your house doesn't always burn down, I'll give you that.

Quote:


How do l.e.d's reduce cluster?




Sorry if you misunderstood that, I meant that using the more expensive LED's I'll have only 2 fixtures instead of 4-5.  LED is more suited for a canopy of light, whereas HID is a single point of light.  The idea with LED is that you create a large light surface above with more focused diodes to maximize penetration and spread. When i was in the tent i had almost the entire 4x4 area with light fixtures--could barely walk in the damn thing. 


Quote:


You said "almost 4 oz off 130watts". Well theres plenty of HID grows that get .8g/watt.





Exactly my point. not to shabby for a first grow.  I'm not saying HID can't do it. I'm saying that LED can.

Quote:


How does the idea of always upgrading chime with that Ben F. thing? Instead of paying rent you buy a house...and then buy another house and another?





Actually tons of people do that, their called rental properties. Or after your house is payed off you can spend the money or save it or do what you like with it. Instead of spending the money on a disposable product (electricity) I and spending that money on a product that I physically own. Eventually those monies pay for the entire fixture and then becomes saved/earned every month. Of course it's limited to grow area, but you do see a return on your investment, other than the bud your smoking. Sure, its maybe only $10-15 a month but that shit adds up.  I'm not even factoring in all the savings in other areas as well, but they are/can be there depending on the operation.  I've heard that the turnaround from HID to LED is about 18 months, but don't quote me on that.

Continuously upgrading before the fixture has paid for itself will cost you tons.. sure, that's dumb to do.

Quote:


My whole point is that spending even your initial 300$ on a Blackstar is not a good investment FOR someone who is tight on cash. A budget is a budget: it has limits.





How people spend their money is up to them, they need to determine whether it's sustainable to continue to spend the extra money each month and more frequent maintenance cost,  or if they can front some cash and not have to take on those extra costs. It's very advisable for me, who has a very limited income, $200/month disability. Those monthly costs could have broke the operation a long time ago.  My point is that lower initial costs are not always the most affordable in the long run. People on a tight budget need to lower their monthly costs the most!  If people cant front the cash they get taxed--it's what keeps the poor down.

I would only recommend the blackstar to newbs who are tight on cash and just want something simple going. those who plan on upgrading or can swing the little extra cash should make the better investment. It's why I say research, there is positive feedback with the blackstar--they do work, but the features it offers for the price make it look more affordable yet is sub-par to other grow lights today.

Quote:


one last question:
Do you think spending an extra 100$ to get l.e.d. lighting would make up for the loss of yield, if you had to spend 100$ less on sub+nutes+additives, or 100$ less on seeds (use bag seed)? Just 2 examples..





What loss of yield are you referring to? it's kind of a loaded question since it assumes there will automatically be a lower yield. Theoretical gardening is a bitch. It currently takes about 65-75% LED watts to compare to HID. If you don't have your lights right then you might see a reduction in yield.  LED will save you some cash on nutrients, the total depends on your operation. Eventually it will cover the investment, but I doubt it would happen with one grow, my nutrient costs are ~$5-7/week with a ~4x4-4x6 area. you still need to buy the nutrients and have them around, larger containers cost less per unit--also an investment.  Genetics play a strong roll in anybody's garden, if you want to start with bag seed and find the next chem-dog go for it. 

One point I would like to make is that the simplicity of LED enables non-growers to pick up just the fixture and start from there. That's all I had, and 1L of AN grow/micro/bloom that lasted a few runs. My ventilation was opening the closet door when the light was on.  You will see more of the elderly/disabled able to grow their own meds because they don't find HID appealing.

I cant help you if money is an issue, you've got problems beyond the garden. Try and lower your monthly bills, you'll have a little bit more spending money.


--------------------
Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein

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OfflinePilze
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Re: upgrade [Re: phychotron]
    #631063 - 07/09/12 02:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

HID wins, logically and economically.

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Re: upgrade [Re: Pilze]
    #631069 - 07/09/12 03:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

depends on your logic, depends on your economics.


--------------------
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OfflineMaestro
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Re: upgrade [Re: phychotron]
    #631083 - 07/09/12 07:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Everyone knows HID works, but what they don't know is that there is a perfectly good alternative emerging in the market that is able to compete with it. HID's been around for quite some time and it's well known technology. I took all those years of experience and weighed the options and in my case it's much much simpler and cost effective to use LED.




Pretty much. So why exactly is it better to pay more for something that competes with it's cheaper, proven alternative?
Years of experience...with l.e.d.'s. See my point?

Quote:

buy saying one sucks your saying one is better.




Well that is just straight up incorrect man. And there are other types of lighting



Quote:

Actually tons of people do that, their called rental properties. Or after your house is payed off you can spend the money or save it or do what you like with it. Instead of spending the money on a disposable product (electricity) I and spending that money on a product that I physically own. Eventually those monies pay for the entire fixture and then becomes saved/earned every month. Of course it's limited to grow area, but you do see a return on your investment, other than the bud your smoking. Sure, its maybe only $10-15 a month but that shit adds up.  I'm not even factoring in all the savings in other areas as well, but they are/can be there depending on the operation.





Quote:

How people spend their money is up to them, they need to determine whether it's sustainable to continue to spend the extra money each month and more frequent maintenance cost,  or if they can front some cash and not have to take on those extra costs.




You don't seem to understand that some people JUST don't have that kind of money. How they spend it is up to them..but what does that have to do with anything loL?

There are 0 MONTHLY maintenance costs to hid's. What extra costs are you talking about?:confused:

Quote:

What loss of yield are you referring to? it's kind of a loaded question since it assumes there will automatically be a lower yield.




Well if i only have 500$ to invest into a grow, i can spend 100$ on a  150watt hps+reflector or  300$ on your 130 watt l.e.d. (about the same yield)
I would then have either $400 or $200 left for: Nutes, soil, ventilation, seeds, grow tent (or at least Mylar and Velcro), and all the little things which we all know add up to a lump sum. Correct me if i'm wrong, but combined, those factors outweigh the type of lighting by a ton.

Quote:

One point I would like to make is that the simplicity of LED enables non-growers to pick up just the fixture and start from there. That's all I had, and 1L of AN grow/micro/bloom that lasted a few runs. My ventilation was opening the closet door when the light was on.  You will see more of the elderly/disabled able to grow their own meds because they don't find HID appealing.




Floro's and cfl's provided simplicity before l.e.d's OR h.i.d's


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InvisiblephychotronM
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Re: upgrade [Re: Maestro]
    #631090 - 07/09/12 08:35 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

maintenance=bulb replacement. how many months do they last, and how much $ per? 

and HID it's not a cheaper alternative, it just a lower entry cost with higher overall operating costs associated with it. it includes the extra cooling, 90% wasted light energy(lets say 75%, you do need some heat),  bulb changes, etc.  If you can't comprehend that, then I have no hope to convince you that your HID costs more. YES THE INITIAL INVESTMENT FOR LED COST MORE UP FRONT! you don't need to explain that if you only have x dollars that it will be harder to make the investment, that's fairly obvious. I had to work some magic to get it all going, but now I'm set for the future.

I understand perfectly that some people can't afford the investment, but if they do they will save money in the long run, sooner than you might expect--before it's 3 yr warranty is up the added cost will be covered and returning savings.  How people spend their money: rich invest and lower costs, poor are stuck paying higher costs because they can't get out of the rutt to spare a dime. it's universal for most things. Ownership vs. rental-ship.

and i would advise against anyone going with pure flouro's or CFL altogether. I tried buying some cfl's and with the fixtures and bulbs it starts adding up quick. and not so simple when they're hanging up all over the place and cords all over creation. One LED is much wiser than a large CFL array--easier to hang, lasts for years, better light source, no wire mess, etc. I had to return a lot of cfl bulbs to walmart. T5's are awesome for veg and go great next to LED. I'd like to get rid of my t5 4x4 veg light in exchange for another LED. I've been using the same bulbs for awhile now and can't afford to swap those out--but I have to use the failing light source. That's what a tight budget does to you.

And seriously, I don't want to argue too much, if you think HID is great and right for you, right on. It's been around for years, you can get tons of advise on it and it's fairly stable in it's overall role in the garden--people have already figured out all the variables and you don't have to do much thinking about it--too much heat=get an A/C, problem solved.


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