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Maestro said:
6 plants but how big? what's the area?

I voted for 600 cause more light be betta , but light is only 1 of lots of almost equally important factors that you need to consider to "do it right"

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phychotron said:
i skipped the vote and opt for led..

and 6 plants the size of china? or sog? how many square feet? if your getting a 4x4 tent expecting to grow in a 4x4 area, get a 5x5 for a little extra space around the edges for fans or other stuff.

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punkrocker292004 said:
i was gonna purchase
this

or the 400 watt version money is tight im gonna have to save a couple months to get either

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Pilze said:
LEDs suck.

period.

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LED buds are great, you just gotta get a good fixture. There is 99% junk/marketing out there. 



punk, good to see your shopping around ebay. Built almost my entire garden from there, they are almost always the best price, and good shipping. after spending 1000's on ebay i ordered something from amazon and had to wait 3 weeks for my item. people on ebay are in a competition to see who can get the fastest shipping. I've ordered from htg before, no complaints. ebay is also a great source of delicious bacon.

i broke down and went with the 600 and can see everyone is working on a consensus. like it was just said, 2x the light for 1.5x the electricity is hard to beat.

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phychotron said:
you don't have to start out with all $2000 in led's, you can work your way up. To me "Doing it right" is buying the equipment that cost a little more but will last longer or is the final version of what you will end up with. i.e buying larger 8" ducts and fans and tent with 8" vents (not all have this) so you don't have to worry about insufficient air exchange from the starter 4" fan/vents.  I'm assuming if he's upgrading to a 4-600w then there is a lower grade, maybe 150w? that could go along side the led panel until it get's converted over to all led. The extra bud should cover the costs in no time.

Also, if you need an oscillating fan, get a stand up 'tower' fan, the types with the big fan head take up a lot of unnecessary space just to swing back and forth. the tower fans only take up as much space as their footprint, which is also smaller.

Dont just buy any ol' led though, it takes some research to find one with all the right stuff.

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phychotron said:
you don't have to start out with all $2000 in led's, you can work your way up. To me "Doing it right" is buying the equipment that cost a little more but will last longer or is the final version of what you will end up with. i.e buying larger 8" ducts and fans and tent with 8" vents (not all have this) so you don't have to worry about insufficient air exchange from the starter 4" fan/vents.  I'm assuming if he's upgrading to a 4-600w then there is a lower grade, maybe 150w? that could go along side the led panel until it get's converted over to all led. The extra bud should cover the costs in no time.

Also, if you need an oscillating fan, get a stand up 'tower' fan, the types with the big fan head take up a lot of unnecessary space just to swing back and forth. the tower fans only take up as much space as their footprint, which is also smaller.

Dont just buy any ol' led though, it takes some research to find one with all the right stuff.

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You dont need 8" fan for 1 1000 watter. 4" is meant for 400-600 watters. Not that insufficient air exchange is less of a problem with led's.

You dont NEED an oscillating fan with hid's either. It just moves the air better and doesnt whaste space under the lights like your tower fan. also its way quiter.

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Maestro said:
Lol cmon man.

You say how bad the cheap fixtures are and you only had success with 2000$ worth of led's yourself.

So how can you tell someone to go l.e.d. but not go all out? (yes, to me 2000$ is all out.)

Not to mention that you never used hid's, so you can't real

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phychotron said:

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Maestro said:
Lol cmon man.

You say how bad the cheap fixtures are and you only had success with 2000$ worth of led's yourself.

So how can you tell someone to go l.e.d. but not go all out? (yes, to me 2000$ is all out.)

Not to mention that you never used hid's, so you can't real

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Did you have a point to this??

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i was gonna purchase
this

or the 400 watt version money is tight im gonna have to save a couple months to get either

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LED buds are great, you just gotta get a good fixture. There is 99% junk/marketing out there.

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i broke down and went with the 600 and can see everyone is working on a consensus. like it was just said, 2x the light for 1.5x the electricity is hard to beat.

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hawksapprentice said:

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phychotron said:

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Maestro said:
Lol cmon man.

You say how bad the cheap fixtures are and you only had success with 2000$ worth of led's yourself.

So how can you tell someone to go l.e.d. but not go all out? (yes, to me 2000$ is all out.)

Not to mention that you never used hid's, so you can't real

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Did you have a point to this??

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server failure mid post... apparently it cut off mid-quote and everything I said. I kept trying to check it but the board was acting up.

I never said that anything under $2000 is unsuccessful. My first grow was almost 4 oz on 130watts of led for under $300. The blackstar is borderline cheap/effective. It works, but their are higher quality fixtures out there for only slightly more $/watts(actual draw). It was the initial success with the cheaper blackstar fixtures that made me continue with LED. The $2000 price tag is what it will take to put two 400w diamond series in a 4x4 area to maximize available light and reduce clutter.  No regrets spending the money, it's because cash is tight that I chose to go LED and not have to deal with higher operating and maintenance costs. Some people cant do the math or only think month-to-month. I would have had to stop growing if a bulb blew out when cash was tight, or when my electricity was almost shut off.

Instead of giving my money to the power company I chose the wise route of actually getting something out of it.
Similar to buying a house vs. renting, in one your throwing your money away every month, but you still get the 'product'. Sure, one took a large down payment, but you actually get more for your money. By spending it your saving it... hard concept for a lot to grasp. What's the word for that... invest?  A penny saved is a penny earned - Ben Franklin. Does that mean I eventually EARN money from it? yes, according to him.

Like I've been saying, you don't need to go balls out in the beginning, you can slowly convert to LED if funding is an issue. LED can go right next to your HID, it's not like you absolutely, positively have to swap them out. Early LED advise was that you had to run it side by side to your HID. upgrading/new growers are the prime beneficiaries of LED for it's simplicity. I was able to start growing in a sealed room with no ventilation at first, saving money on fans at the time

My experience with HID does not hinder my ability to weigh the pros and cons. How much experience do you haters have with LED to back up your claims? Having grown clones from a friends HID garden I found the bud to be larger, denser and more flavorful. His garden is always having HID related issues, like the light was way too close, or the air conditioner broke, or the bulb went out and he didn't realize it. or he cant leave the house for very long.

I understand the skepticism as the market is flooded with bold claims and junk products. It's not that I'm being sold on the bullshit, it's that I'm seeing through it and going to the people who are building lights for high-demand plants. Those 90w LED to 400w HID claims might apply to stuff like lettuce, but not buds. The balance between quality/price is where most manufactures fall short, there are only a few people developing LED's with our interests in mind and building their product directly around our feedback. Many of the fixtures on ebay for example are just theoretical components put together in an attempt to sell you a new futuristic product. You cant judge the market by being flooded by low quality Chinese fixtures and then the shitty results people got with them because they didn't do their research or intentionally thought they could somehow beat 'going cheap.'

I'm not trying to argue LED > HID and vice versa (that would take all day and then some), but the idea that LED's don't work is a misplaced and antiquated opinion. With the proper equipment you can get spectacular results. The cost:benefit ratio is good and an overall good investment despite the higher initial costs.  Lets just say that starting now, there are some LED fixtures out there that can produce good results on par with HID. Could you guys at lease accept the chance that maybe LED has reached a new milestone?

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Maestro said:

It takes reasearch to realise you need to invest a lot of $ into something thats going to be twice as cheap in a year. Im saving more money waiting for bbetter l.e.d's while you fund the reasearch by paying for prototypes. Which is great, but only for someone who has no $ issues.

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Pilze said:
my hydro store stopped carrying them years ago. if you try to order one theyll try to talk you out of it. for YOUR sake.

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hawksapprentice said:
He didn't want LED.  You need to learn that not everyone wants to go that route.

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I actually didn't hear a preference, just that he is upgrading was thinking of an hid package. In my experience LED has been good and I'm just trying to share that. No one's ever going to want to go that route if they never hear anything positive about it

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Maestro said:
Good point.
Phychotron, do you need to use heaters in the winter?

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Maestro said:
I DONT have expirience in L.E.D. All I said about them I took from your posts.
However, I don't go around claiming HID is "better" then l.e.d...

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how often does an ac break down? Doesnt take a greenthumb to know, not too often.
How often does a good hps bulb just go out? idk, but from research I know to replace it after 2 harvests, not when it goes out.

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It's not the frequency, it's the risk of it. More equipment=more risk, plain and simple. Not having to buy the extra equipment also saves money .  I live in the middle of nowhere, it's a long drive to get supplies *should a problem arise*. You seriously buy a new bulb every 4 months? how much do they cost per? It was those reoccurring cost that helped influence my decision--I'm on a tight budget.  There are also other drawbacks that i didn't go into, like no misting around hot bulbs or hot starts or the fire hazard it presents. Sure, your house doesn't always burn down, I'll give you that.

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How do l.e.d's reduce cluster?

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You said "almost 4 oz off 130watts". Well theres plenty of HID grows that get .8g/watt.

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How does the idea of always upgrading chime with that Ben F. thing? Instead of paying rent you buy a house...and then buy another house and another?

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My whole point is that spending even your initial 300$ on a Blackstar is not a good investment FOR someone who is tight on cash. A budget is a budget: it has limits.

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one last question:
Do you think spending an extra 100$ to get l.e.d. lighting would make up for the loss of yield, if you had to spend 100$ less on sub+nutes+additives, or 100$ less on seeds (use bag seed)? Just 2 examples..

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Everyone knows HID works, but what they don't know is that there is a perfectly good alternative emerging in the market that is able to compete with it. HID's been around for quite some time and it's well known technology. I took all those years of experience and weighed the options and in my case it's much much simpler and cost effective to use LED.

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buy saying one sucks your saying one is better.

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Actually tons of people do that, their called rental properties. Or after your house is payed off you can spend the money or save it or do what you like with it. Instead of spending the money on a disposable product (electricity) I and spending that money on a product that I physically own. Eventually those monies pay for the entire fixture and then becomes saved/earned every month. Of course it's limited to grow area, but you do see a return on your investment, other than the bud your smoking. Sure, its maybe only $10-15 a month but that shit adds up.  I'm not even factoring in all the savings in other areas as well, but they are/can be there depending on the operation.

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How people spend their money is up to them, they need to determine whether it's sustainable to continue to spend the extra money each month and more frequent maintenance cost,  or if they can front some cash and not have to take on those extra costs.

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You don't seem to understand that some people JUST don't have that kind of money. How they spend it is up to them..but what does that have to do with anything loL?

There are 0 MONTHLY maintenance costs to hid's. What extra costs are you talking about?

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What loss of yield are you referring to? it's kind of a loaded question since it assumes there will automatically be a lower yield.

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One point I would like to make is that the simplicity of LED enables non-growers to pick up just the fixture and start from there. That's all I had, and 1L of AN grow/micro/bloom that lasted a few runs. My ventilation was opening the closet door when the light was on.  You will see more of the elderly/disabled able to grow their own meds because they don't find HID appealing.

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Heat from HID is emitted via photons. you can cool the bulb but the light will continue to produce heat on every surface it touches. LED is gentler on the plant with far less IR. giving you the option to add or remove IR to speed/slow maturity rate. people seem to agree lower IR and slightly longer flower times produce higher quality buds. but the quality of light source is another discussion on it's own

you water less and use less nutrients.

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OK, time to hit the brakes for a minute here.
I've tested a few 100 of these LED panels.
The best units have a good bit of penetration and product just about as much heat.  Resulting in keeping the light about 6 to 10 inches off the tops of the plants.  Bleaching was always a factor when running intense LEDs.  A few models yielded very well for me, I'll give them that, but most suck ass.

I've got a 120 watt LED that I can yield equal to my 400 watt grows, I'm talking 300+ grams.  But it sits in a box on a shelf while I run 600 wattx.

LEDs will be the future, but it's not the present.

On the nute comment,  My finding were like this, 400 watt HID ec 1.2 to 1.5.
To match yields with the 120 LED ec was 1.75 to 2.0.
Had to water both 3 times a day, and omce at night.
Both done in 4 square feet.
Same air exchange rate.
Same temps.

I think I've rambled enough now.

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phychotron said:
I want to try some of that thc free high cbd bud from Israel.

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Lacombe Grown said:
Well let's get this outta the way right now.  I in NO way change my bulbs every 2 grows.  It's been 2 years and I'm still pulling 2 pounds per light. 


thanks hawk saved me a few bucks!

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Lacombe Grown said:
youch. what bulb is that? and how much do the meters run? thanks.

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hawksapprentice said:
And I buy the 90 dollar hortilux.....so I try and stretch the life of em a bit.

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punkrocker292004 said:
wow you led people gotta stop pushin yer religion on us hid people cant we just agree to disagree its like biodiesel and gasoline

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Dude...SO WHAT ARE THE EXTRA COSTS??
PLEASE just answer straight forward

You said:
Bulbs
Cooling
Electricity
New ballast when upgrading

But:
Good bulbs dont need replacement for years. Even my 15$ one is rated for 12 months, I said 2 harvests, cause I asked around about it and read that it looses power after 5-6 months.

You need 0 extra cooling (once again).

Electricity costs make me laugh when put next to l.e.d initial costs. Yeah ill get my money back in 10 years ._. Except that in 10 years I'd be loosing money by using a obsolete prototype.

You DO need a new ballast for more l.e.d.'s. The ballast is inside the fixture but that doesnt matter.

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Sorry for hijacking the thread, I personally don't want to argue it--I said it before, you have to decide what is right for your operation, in my case LED works awesome, others like to stick with the HID, that's fine. But I do want to help stop the spread of misinformation that the people have latched onto. I'll shut up about it if everyone else will.

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Oh, did't see that. Good enouph