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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 645
More talk about LED's
    #408329 - 04/28/10 05:59 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Aight, I've made it a personal mission to find out anything and everything about LED's because they are supposed to be the "future" of growing.

In the past month I've read well over 100 studies from a variety of plant physiology and optics journals.

I've also scoured over space research and the advances NASA continues to make.

The consensus is in. LED's blow.

NASA continues to use them only as supplemental lighting to high-output florescence.

They have switched gears and are now trying to improve the plants.

You can grow like NASA and make up 1000, 42 square inch growth chambers.

But honestly, we live on earth. We are not growing in space...



The problem with LED's is that they can only use so much power.

When you hear that they are making huge advances in LED technology, that's true.

But it's primarily ways of maximizing the energy in the already highly advanced LED's available.

Flouro's continue to out-produce LED's. Fact.


http://www.nasa.gov/home/index.html#
http://www.opticsinfobase.org/
http://www.plantphysiol.org/
http://www.opticsjournal.com/
http://www.osa.org/journals/osajournals/


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InvisibleNightGrower
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #408332 - 04/28/10 06:04 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you, that was informative and to the point.

Cheers


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Learn of Terence Mckenna. Check out the Shroomery to learn more about what one man did for mushies. Thank you, Terence.


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: NightGrower] * 1
    #408341 - 04/28/10 06:09 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

And HID blow both out the water.  :vaped:


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #408351 - 04/28/10 06:17 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
And HID blow both out the water.  :vaped:




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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #408802 - 04/29/10 01:20 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:


Flouro's continue to out-produce LED's. Fact.





You have got to be kidding me.

Flouro's do not equall LED's at all, in my opinion.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=169532

Here is some side by side grows LED vs HID and we know HID is the best right now, but no flouro compares to either.:nonono:


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 645
Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Stoneth]
    #408843 - 04/29/10 02:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

stoney.69 said:
Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:


Flouro's continue to out-produce LED's. Fact.





You have got to be kidding me.





No, I'm not kidding. All the information I viewed was from peer reviewed articles.

That pictorial came from someone selling LED's.

You can't use it as an argument because it's completely bias for the simple fact that it is coming from a vendor.

The articles I read where in controlled environments not trying to prove if one was better than the other.

Only trying to find out what is better.

What controls did she use? Where's all her info?

Just by looking at the pictures I notice both sides are using different spectrum's of light.

Any self respecting scientist would reject this experiment on that aspect alone.

Just pictures prove nothing. By selling the product she clearly could have other motives trying to say "Oh, my product is better".

Being a contest discredits everything in that thread.

Everyone submitting info had something to gain.

The only results that are posted are the ones they wanted. How else can you win her contest.

I can believe her pictorial or I can believe the people who have been studying it for years and are the actual ones making all the advancements.

Go on the sites I listed and read for yourself. There's literally 10's of thousands of articles on the subject.

Plenty of proof supporting my claim.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409658 - 04/30/10 06:43 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Man maybe you should read over that forum not just that one post.

Watt per watt no flouro compares to LED.

Hell when they compare LEDs to HID they do so by running say a 1000 watt HPS against a 250-300 watt LED and the turnouts are close, I still want to see a watt per watt comparison LED vs. HID.

And most of us know it takes twice the watt flouro to even begin to compare to HID.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 645
Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Stoneth]
    #409679 - 04/30/10 07:52 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

stoney.69 said:
Man maybe you should read over that forum not just that one post.

Watt per watt no flouro compares to LED.




Actually, I'm an avid reader of ICMAG along with a bunch of other growing forums.

How else would I have known that thread was derived from a contest?


Here's one experiment(out of thousands) that I found quickly that might be a good read for you.

"best-performing LED replacements could not deliver even one-half the light output of the benchmarked fluorescent sources"

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/troffer_benchmark_01-09.pdf

I know you whole heartily believe what your saying is correct but I just want to flood people with the data they don't normally see because it's hard to find.

Bias pictorials are a dime a dozen.


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #409680 - 04/30/10 07:57 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

hmm, good read. It did seem that CALiPER was slightly biased against LED's even as early as the abstract, but their procedures seemed sound enough so I'm going to vote that the bias was rationally derived.


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

Registered: 08/13/09
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #409696 - 04/30/10 08:21 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Yah, I guess anything could be considered bias.

I'd rather take the word of our United States department of Energy over a bunch of people just sticking 2 lights next to each other with no knowledge of how lights even work.

CALiPER is actually a program by our government made to compare the lights to help LED's in our marketplace.



"The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) is a federal agency working in the public interest. Published information from the DOE SSL CALiPER Program, including test reports, technical information, and summaries, is intended solely for the benefit of the public, in order to help buyers, specifiers of new SSL products, testing laboratories, energy experts, energy program managers, regulators, and others make informed choices and decisions about SSL products and related technologies."


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #410109 - 05/01/10 03:45 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I keep hearing people saying they want a watt for watt comparison between LED and HID.  The problem with this though, is that it would take so many damned LED's to equal the HID.  And that in itself doesn't seem very efficient to me.  If your having to spread it out over to far of an area wouldn't it just start taking up too much space?


--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

-niteowl


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InvisibleDataM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #410326 - 05/02/10 09:58 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

LED's are less efficient than HID's when it comes to light out vs. wattage in.

The difference is that due to the very specific wavelength's of light that can be output from the LED's the actual usable light output of Red/blue LED combos is more efficient per watt in than HID's

out of an HID's total light output, 10 to 15% of that light is usable by the plant, the rest bounces around the grow room until it is absorbed by the mylar or the plant...and converted into heat. A good LED system puts out 75-100% of its light in the usable wavelengths.

In a watt to watt comparison for a decent 600W LED grow light versus a 600W MH/HPS HID setup...I would be willing to bet a decent amount of money that the LED setup would far outperform the HID.

The problem is that this is not how the LED market works. LED "equivalent HID wattage" is used. So for a 600W HID system, most companies would suggest a 120W LED model, which will not measure up to a 600W HID system no matter how badass the LED lights are, I know this from experience.

The biggest reason that LED's are currently sucky is because they are so goddamn expensive for the wattage. If I could buy a 600W LED grow light for the same price as a 1000W HID...I would buy the LED grow light and be done with it. But as where you may run $500 for a nice HID system, a 600W LED system usually costs over $2000, and is not worth that kind of money.

This is my two cents on the matter...I could get into photo-regulated processes within the plant and how most LED's are inferior in that way but I'll just leave that for another post...

peace guys and gals
agmotes165


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT


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InvisibleHawksresurrection
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Data]
    #410331 - 05/02/10 10:45 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

So then how do LED's, in your opinion, do in size of footprint compared to HID.  It seems like it would be smaller.  But then I haven't put money into actually getting a setup and seeing what kind of reach the light has.  It seems to me that HID's would have a much larger footprint, therefore increasing the amount of plants you could have under each light.


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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.

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OfflineDieselB
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Hawksresurrection]
    #410338 - 05/02/10 10:57 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know, a 600w LED panel would be quite large, seems it would have a larger footprint than a 600w HID.


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InvisibleDataM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DieselB]
    #410367 - 05/02/10 11:34 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

again...this depends on the type of LED used...

LED's come in many different "viewing angles" such as 10o, up to about 120-135o...this is the total angle through which the light is distributed.

If the LED light is made up of wide angle LED's then it will have a much larger footprint. This will also decrease light intensity...which would be perfectly fine for a 600W.


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Stoneth]
    #410882 - 05/03/10 07:32 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

stoney.69 said:
Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:

Flouro's continue to out-produce LED's. Fact.





You have got to be kidding me.

Flouro's do not equall LED's at all, in my opinion.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=169532

Here is some side by side grows LED vs HID and we know HID is the best right now, but no flouro compares to either.:nonono:




Seconded. LED's (at least with 0.5w+ bulbs) surpassed HO flouros long ago. The "fact" statement is laughable if you have tried growing cannabis with both. I use 134 watts combined to clone and veg *all* of my plants and that just wouldn't be possible with T5HO.

The cliff notes version:

LEDs are more efficient than T5HOs
LEDs are more efficient than HIDs
LEDs will out-preform T5HOs
LEDs will not out-preform HIDs


LEDs are the best for cloning and vegetative growth
HIDs are best for flowering growth

Last time I saw this guy talking about LEDs he cited a study from 1995 or something. Not going to read into this much further.


Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/03/10 07:33 AM)


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DieselB]
    #410883 - 05/03/10 07:35 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieselB said:
I don't know, a 600w LED panel would be quite large, seems it would have a larger footprint than a 600w HID.




Most of them use 3w bulbs or a combination of 1w & 3w bulbs to keep the size down. Also remember LEDs don't need reflectors because all the light is extremely directional.


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Skunk Train (Most Recent) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed)
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"The secret of improved plant breeding, apart from scientific knowledge, is love." -Luther Burbank


Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/03/10 07:35 AM)


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DoPeYsMuRf]
    #410886 - 05/03/10 07:49 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DoPeYsMuRf said:
I'd rather take the word of our United States department of Energy




http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011649632_apwaledstreetlights.html

The bright future of T5HO and HID must be why the DOE is replacing 40,000 HID street lamps with LED fixtures in my city. Or why local governments have been doing this across Europe for years now. Your argument against LEDs is based on light output and you cite no cannabis-specific studies, so I'm interested to see how you spin this when they believe in the output and efficiency of LEDs for public safety on a massive scale.


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Skunk Train (Most Recent) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed) | G13 Haze (Completed)
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"The secret of improved plant breeding, apart from scientific knowledge, is love." -Luther Burbank


Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/03/10 07:52 AM)


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #410913 - 05/03/10 09:29 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I'm still not sure I agree. As a case study, compare Agmotes LED grow where he used approx 200W of LED power with my CFL grow where I had 250W of CFLs (although only about 100W was on a single plant).

I yielded nearly triple what he did


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #410928 - 05/03/10 10:00 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I'm still not sure I agree. As a case study, compare Agmotes LED grow where he used approx 200W of LED power with my CFL grow where I had 250W of CFLs (although only about 100W was on a single plant).

I yielded nearly triple what he did




No offense to agmotes but cultivation skills and factors alone could explain the difference IMO. My 120w LED vastly outperforms 195w CFL (3x 65w Flourex CFL's) for comparison. Just like the ICmag thread we might be splitting hairs unless people try both and report unbiased results, but the fact that he said it was a fact is what I take offense with. This guy clearly hasn't cultivated anything under LEDs and is spewing hypothetical bullshit based on studies of drop-in T8 tube LED replacements, etc. He says getting two lamps side by side isn't the solution when in fact it is, lol.


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"The secret of improved plant breeding, apart from scientific knowledge, is love." -Luther Burbank


Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (05/03/10 10:03 AM)


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InvisibleHarry_Ba11sachM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #410932 - 05/03/10 10:03 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

well if anyone wants to send me a 600W LED array I'll gladly do a side-by-side :yesnod::lol:


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #410937 - 05/03/10 10:08 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
well if anyone wants to send me a 600W LED array I'll gladly do a side-by-side :yesnod::lol:




I've been waiting for the same lightning to strike :awesomenod:


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InvisibleDataM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #411003 - 05/03/10 12:41 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

206 said:
Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
I'm still not sure I agree. As a case study, compare Agmotes LED grow where he used approx 200W of LED power with my CFL grow where I had 250W of CFLs (although only about 100W was on a single plant).

I yielded nearly triple what he did




No offense to agmotes but cultivation skills and factors alone could explain the difference IMO. My 120w LED vastly outperforms 195w CFL (3x 65w Flourex CFL's) for comparison. Just like the ICmag thread we might be splitting hairs unless people try both and report unbiased results, but the fact that he said it was a fact is what I take offense with. This guy clearly hasn't cultivated anything under LEDs and is spewing hypothetical bullshit based on studies of drop-in T8 tube LED replacements, etc. He says getting two lamps side by side isn't the solution when in fact it is, lol.




I have to agree...I did not have ideal conditions for those grows, the soil mix was ok, the temperatures were always hot and im sure the CO2 concentrations were probably low due to 2 plants in a tiny space. I'm glad my grow is seen as a sort of benchmark but it was by no means perfect.

If nobody else does this then I will have a steady flow of money coming in about a year...and will purchase a 600W LED and a 600W switchable MH/HPS system and do a side by side grow with better conditions.

I just currently don't have the money, time, and space to do it currently or it would already be done.

peace,
agmotes165


--------------------
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT


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InvisibleDoPeYsMuRf

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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Crusty Ass Bastard]
    #411020 - 05/03/10 01:12 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I'm all for the best lighting solution. It's just from all the studies I find tend to say the same thing.

I would love to find a real study showing LED's are superior but I just can't.

Yes the last study I posted was from 15 years ago but every study I've read following that date has had the same results.

What makes LED's more efficient is that they last longer, use less electricity, and the ability to aim the light like you said, directional. But that's really a tricky statement if you start thinking about it.

Flouros send light in all directions which means you need a reflector to aim your light. LED's just being directional constitutes the claim of being more efficient, but like the study I posted shows, more efficient doesn't always mean better quality of light.

I think what makes LED's a better solution for streetlight and such is the fact that they do last longer. It's not because they put out more light.

When cities make decisions like this they take literally everything into account. The gas cost from traveling all the way down to the wage they have to pay the crews to change out the light.

It's very easy to see that in situations like this it would be more efficient to use LED's. But still, is a better quality of light produced?

I'm trying to show there is a difference when you take everything into account.

Yah, your right when you say I haven't grown with them and my claim towards plant growth is all hypothetical but I still stand by my claim because I have seen the proof and the studies behind it.

LED can only be so big and can only produce so much light. When you calculate how much physical space they could possibly occupy, along with how much light they can actually produce, the math proves they are inferior QUALITY of light.


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InvisibleStonethM
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
    #411396 - 05/03/10 11:55 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Harry_Ba11sach said:
well if anyone wants to send me a 600W LED array I'll gladly do a side-by-side :yesnod::lol:



I'm going to do a small scale side by side.

15 watt LED vs 15 watt CFL

Both will be in a 12 inch by 12 inch 2 foot tall area, I'll use either hashberry or Blueberry x White Russian clones still a waiting sex to show.

I've just got to see for myself, I've grown with T5's and CFL's in the past, this will be my first LED grow and the LED bulb was a freebie.:lol:


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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: Stoneth]
    #411415 - 05/04/10 12:44 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Yah, were is the group buy on a LED light; since they are superior then HID lighting in every way. And if you don't believe, then why are digital ballasts going for less then the LED lights?

You can get a 600W Lumatek digital ballast, for MH and HPS for >$200 on eBay. That is ridiculous. Those used to go for $500-600.


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OfflineDieselB
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: fungi]
    #411481 - 05/04/10 07:23 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

The prices are high because it's new technology and they haven't had a lot of time to perfect(cheap down) the manafacturing process. Nor is their enough demand right now to drive prices down.


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If you ain't smokin' dro, you're smokin' reggie. :shrug:


Edited by DieselB (05/04/10 07:23 AM)


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OfflineCrusty Ass Bastard
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Re: More talk about LED's [Re: DieselB]
    #411494 - 05/04/10 08:23 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieselB said:
Nor is their enough demand right now to drive prices down.




I disagree. The 120w I bought in January 2009 can now be had for 35% of what I paid and most other units especially UFO's have also seen their cost cut in half. Ebay might not be the best barometer, but there are thousands of led grow lights getting bids and selling every day there compared to maybe a hundred HID setups. Advertisers pay 3x the price on google adwords for LED grow lights and look at some of their keyword tool search data:

"led grow light" 201,000 searches
"led grow lights" 301,000 searches
"hps grow light" 27,000 searches
"hps grow lights" 9,900 searches
"fluorescent grow light" 22,200 searches
"flourescent grow lights" 18,100 searches
"ufo led grow light" 9,900 searches

The ones really driving the costs down are all the aerogarden types that never would have considered buying a HID setup but love the idea of LEDs and an indoor garden that doesn't generate heat or make any noticeable change in their electric bill. MJ growers can just ride the wave as prices go lower and intensity increases as opposed to doing 99% of the spending (like we do on HPS) and being locked in at the same prices year after year after decade with little to no innovation.


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