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 Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal 
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 Debate: removing damaged leaves. 
#348202 - 01/15/10 12:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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What's the point at which you start removing damaged leaves? On the one hand, damaged leaves consume energy while the plant tries to repair them. On the other hand, once part of a leaf is damaged beyond repair the plant may not put any energy into repairing it, and what remains of the leaf will still photosynthesize.
So what do you do?
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,041
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#348215 - 01/15/10 12:46 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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My understanding is that when leaves are more than 50% diseased or damaged, as u put it, they should be removed. As the plants develop the oldest fan leaves on the plant naturally lose their grip on the main stalk. Now i would assume that this also relates to the amount and flow of nutrients available to that particular leaf. I usually start at the bottom and will kind of firmly push down on the top of the petoile where it connects to the stalk. if it falls then great and I remove it from the area. if not, then that's even better. that's just what ive been doing on the two grows I have done.
edit:
good topic 
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#348245 - 01/15/10 01:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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When I pull on them very slightly and they come off with no effort.
If I have to put ANYTHING into it, I let it stay, because obviously the plant isn't ready to let it go.
MY URGENT QUESTION IS THIS! (sorry harry)
My lower budsites are SEVERELY light deprived because of my thick canopy of indica fans. I NEVER remove good leaves but these are seriously reeking havoc on the lower half of the plant.
Is it okay to remove a few "key" leaves that would allow light to the lower buds? I really can't afford to let all of those potential buds go to popcorn, when they really do look like they could improve.
I know you don't make a house more efficient by removing the solar panels and whatnot, but there are plenty of other perfect fans, but there are just a select few that I feel could go. What do you think?
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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coda
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,736
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#348343 - 01/15/10 04:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is it okay to remove a few "key" leaves that would allow light to the lower buds? I really can't afford to let all of those potential buds go to popcorn, when they really do look like they could improve.
I always do. Thing is, while the leaves DO act like solar panels, if your plant is flush with healthy fans removing a few here and there will not really hurt you.
Quote:
My understanding is that when leaves are more than 50% diseased or damaged, as u put it, they should be removed.
+1 If around 1/2 of my leaf is crisped, yellowed, whatever, I just clip it. At the very least I'll clip off the dead part and leave the living tissue.
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MFDoom666: sobriety kills my buzz every time.
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 DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: coda]
#348461 - 01/15/10 08:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I thought that especially in the case of yellowing, the healthier growth is actually leeching sugars and nutrients from the lower plant to sustain itself.
If that's true then when you remove a leaf you'd always be throwing away some goodies. Maybe most of the time it's just not that critical...
Personally I've been doing the 'if it lets go of it with slight pressure' approach.
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,041
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: DudeTron]
#348470 - 01/15/10 08:46 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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that seems to be the consensus thus far, if it lets go of it with slight pressure. I can't speak to the details of the biophysiology involved. I wish I could and would love to read a brief synopsis of how that system works.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#348476 - 01/15/10 09:05 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good to hear. I'll remove those tomorrow morning when the lights are on.
I should have a while ago, but at least they still have a couple weeks to fatten up, which they seem to be finally...
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#348481 - 01/15/10 09:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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but now what about leaves that have been damaged by nutrient burn, water on the leaves, or bug damage? those almost never let go easily no matter how damaged they are.
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,041
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#348486 - 01/15/10 09:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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like coda and i said, if it's more than 50% damaged pluck it.
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
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 Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#348490 - 01/15/10 09:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Like everyone else if it comes off.
Cut bad tissue off leaves and let the good tissue stay.
And if a leave looks like its needs to be gone ,then its cut off.
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: KaptKid]
#348497 - 01/15/10 11:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess ultimately it comes down to aesthetics... In nature it would take an another animal brushing against a plant or strong weather to remove sub-par growth.
I'd be willing to say a leaf is never hurting its own plant aside from infection or infestation, which are both parasitic circumstances.
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,041
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: DudeTron]
#348500 - 01/15/10 11:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well the issue is draining nutrients from the bud development. not necessarily hurting the plant but just a method for redistribution of nutrients and the plants efforts towards a more vigorous search for pollen (bud development). no?
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dutc2006
Grow or Die
Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 199
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#348513 - 01/16/10 01:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I too only remove leaves that come off with little to no force. Usually these leaves display themselves as yellow, or crispy. I have found that when I just trim away the dead material from the leaf, that the cut area begins to yellow very quickly thereafter, leading me to think that the plant is ridding itself of this leaf naturally anyways. Some of my plants have seemed to be revived after being rid of dead weight damaged leaves.
I think cutting healthy leaves to reveal lower popcorn buds to light is not beneficial, and overzealous trimming of fan leaves for aesthetics or air circulation is detrimental and stunts growth.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: dutc2006]
#348518 - 01/16/10 03:02 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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in a perfect world we would at max trim big fan leaves. harvest top then leave the bottom an extra few weeks to mature without those big fan leaves in the way. But so many factors as always. this way woudl prob work best on sativa dom. just because you could have nugs with all white pistils on the bottom and 90% brown on the top half. again i just love biology and this makes sense to me but im sure experience tells a different story. And likely why scrog is used, not chop and let mature more. hahah
peace
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: the man]
#348519 - 01/16/10 03:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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also those fall off the bone leaves may be taken off early as it takes awhile for the ethylene to take affect. and perhaps taking the leaves you know are gunna come off anyway a bit earlier will allow more of the production of ethylene to the buds to mature??? i dunno. and im kinda on a shit talk session here, so ill shut up.
peace
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: dutc2006]
#348615 - 01/16/10 12:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
dutc2006 said:
I think cutting healthy leaves to reveal lower popcorn buds to light is not beneficial, and overzealous trimming of fan leaves for aesthetics or air circulation is detrimental and stunts growth.
I disagree. I have literally 50-60 nice big fans on a plant. Show me what is damaging by removing 10% of those, so that 50% of the plant will be allowed more direct light?
One big fan at the top of the plant, can shade the entire bottom half of the plant. The bottom half has it's own fans but they aren't receiving light, so when I cut the one up top, the energy is transferred to the leaves that are newly exposed. Those buds as a result will be much larger and more mature in the end. If you are scissor happy then yes, it won't be beneficial but the point was to take only "KEY" leaves that were blocking major areas that need more development.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#348619 - 01/16/10 12:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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the way I see it- there's only so much square footage of light that your bulb can produce, so after you're done training the plant to grow horizontally removing leafs won't increase the amount of light absorbed. once the floor is in complete shade your plant is catching all possible light, so removing a top fan leaf to let the light to bottom leafs won't increase the total amount of energy absorbed by the plant, it'll just redistribute it
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#348682 - 01/16/10 02:57 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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light intensity drops off exponentially the further from the bulb. cause the radius squared. also will the main cola grow just as large as the 2 extra bud sites would buy cutting that one leaf??
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: the man]
#348707 - 01/16/10 04:06 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Now I'm not for trimming leaves off of a plant as I've said you don't take the solar panels off of a house and expect it to be more efficient. Now if they are broken then you have to take them off.
Same for sick leaves. The plant will use more energy trying to fix the leaf then if you just took it off. There will be no difference if you remove sick leaves. Now if you have enough sick leaves that removing them all looks like it will make a difference in the plants growth then you have bigger problems then just removing leaves.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
 Join us at the Growery!
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Magash]
#348758 - 01/16/10 05:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, is there any way to tell if a plant is trying to heal a leaf or if it is trying to suck nutrients back out of it?
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dutc2006
Grow or Die
Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 199
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#348816 - 01/16/10 06:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inverted said:
Show me what is damaging by removing 10% of those, so that 50% of the plant will be allowed more direct light?
I don't believe you are "damaging" the plant, per se. Like somebody above said, light intensity is governed by the inverse square law. The energy that the larger and higher fan leaves take in is greater than the amount of energy that the lower fan leaves take in. So why remove a higher larger fan leaf that is doing more work? I am only talking about healthy fan leaves here. I can see pruning healthy leaves being more beneficial in shorter bushier indicas where the light won't have to travel much farther after a leaf has been removed, as opposed to stretched out sativas, where the internode distances are longer.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: dutc2006]
#348893 - 01/16/10 09:40 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see what your point is, and agree with you totally, but my plant is only 20 inches tall, so I'm really not losing much light intensity by lowering the absorbing leaves 4 inches.
You see what I'm saying here?
This plant has a lower canopy. I removed 4 larger fans from near the middle of the plant, and this only opened up more fans for light. I decided the trim was best for the plant and so far, after removing those, It looks like ALL of the lower budsites will be taking off. It just seems more open, but the lower canopy gets MUCH more light so I think in my situation with shorter plants with super fat leaves, taking a few key leaves is a good idea.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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blueberry D
Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 730
Loc: michigan
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#348969 - 01/17/10 09:42 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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That main bud looks fat as hell, good job inverted.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: blueberry D]
#348977 - 01/17/10 10:33 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks man, it really swelled up recently. Most of the weight will come from that I would think. That is my favorite plant by far. The smell, trich coverage, and overall health are all amazing. Should have used it as a mother.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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dutc2006
Grow or Die
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#349047 - 01/17/10 03:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey Inverted I have a plant that looks almost exactly like yours, what strain is that? Mine is growing right now in my flower box, see it right there on the left?
I don't know what the strain is, I got the seed from a friend. I didn't want to waste to much time on an unknown strain when I had so many good known genetics to work with so I 12/12ed it from seed. It has one gnarley thick bud on top, and smells like nothing good.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: dutc2006]
#349086 - 01/17/10 05:51 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nice!
But I have one question, what happened, it didn't grow any branches because you flowered it from seed?
It may be deceiving scale wise but my plant is not really that small. I think it's more like 24 inches tall and has around 10 branches that range from 4-6 inches. Now that it has swelled up a little more (day 51) my hopes came back up. I think my two Indica phenotypes will yield an Oz combined. I really can't wait for next run, this was a throwaway.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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dutc2006
Grow or Die
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Posts: 199
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#349089 - 01/17/10 05:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yea, all the would be nodes just ended up growing alongside the main stalk. Pretty typical for 12/12 from seed with an indica/ruderalis dominant strain. The top cola is just fat as hell. I just measured mine, it is only 16" tall from the base of the stalk. I just thought it looked really similar pheno-wise to yours.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: dutc2006]
#349148 - 01/17/10 09:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh yeah I totally agree. It's Chrystal (NL x WW) x NL
And that specific plant is by far the best yielder and smell. We'll see how the potency checks out in about 10 days.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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pblcenmy1
Perfectionist
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Re: Debate: removing damaged leaves. [Re: Inverted]
#349856 - 01/18/10 10:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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to get back on topic, its always best to understand why the leaf was damaged or is in need of removal. In my experience, not just with marijuana, bottom leafs turn or die because of lack of light. This is true with power house photosynthesizers. Its either trimming of top leafs, or the natural dieing of lower ones. And if leaf damage occurs because of heat, lack of nutrients, pests, etc, then simply removing the leafs wont keep this from reoccurring.
the removal of suspect leafs is not a science, but understanding and preventing such problems is much more exact.
personally, i see no problems with stress fully trimming a plant to either provide room for future expansion, or to allow more light penetration. This also allows the plant to prioritize and to naturally adapt, which, in my my opinion is a crucial part to understanding how plants react to their environment.
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Clementine
Stranger
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A question about damaged leaves [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#459274 - 08/13/10 08:26 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have a small plant. It sprouted maybe a week or so ago. My cat chewed on two of its leaves, the largest ones. They didn't recover and I left them like that hoping that they would...Should I just remove them and let new ones grow? Would the plant be able to survive, since it's so young?
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: A question about damaged leaves [Re: Clementine]
#459328 - 08/13/10 09:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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In that case I would recommend leaving the leafs on. In this thread i was thinking primarily about leaves damaged from internal sources such as overfeeding, underwatering etc. If it was just your cat giving them a chomp then I'm sure the plant will bounce back 
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boomsaway
Registered: 04/25/09 
Posts: 95
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Re: A question about damaged leaves [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#459364 - 08/13/10 11:40 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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i've always removed any dead or damaged leaves for fear of attracting bugs or disease because of dying organic matter hangin out in the grow room.
maybe im just paranoid, but havent had any problems doin it that way
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Tank333
Psychotic Hippie
Registered: 08/19/10
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Re: A question about damaged leaves [Re: boomsaway]
#463983 - 08/20/10 03:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK, so I'm hella new, and I just got invited to help a friend with his father's crop. I've never grown before, but I've listened to as many growers as I could, and watched when and where I could. And I know next to nothing about the plants themselves yet, other than they were in hydro, and then they moved them into soil when stagnant water caused black spotting on the roots.
As soon as I walked into the room, I cringed, and I could almost feel their pain. He has the lights literally centimeters away from the plants! He has several cfl's hanging around the plants, and every single one has burn damage, either on the buds, or the tips of the leaves.
Everyone here's talked about nute damage and whatnot, but no-one's specifically mentioned heat burn. My question is, after raising the lights away from the plants, should I trim off the burned portions of the leaves, or should I wait to see if they can recover? I'll just remove anything more than 50% yellowed, but will the small tips of the leaves be fine if left, or should I trim those?
Also, I'd been told that there's a certain way you're supposed to cut the leaves, if you do trim off the burned/damaged portion. Is there any truth to that, or is that just someone wanting to sound knowledgeable?
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My best run so far
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: A question about damaged leaves [Re: Tank333]
#464394 - 08/20/10 05:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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If the leaves are burned there not gonna recover in the burned areas. There is no special method of cutting the leaves. 
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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NizzyJones
Fight Evil with Funk
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Re: A question about damaged leaves [Re: Magash]
#464811 - 08/21/10 01:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Interesting related thread at ic about using some pretty intense manual defoliation: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163
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