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 DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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 GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? 
#320064 - 11/22/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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After a lot of research, I trashed my plans to grow with LEDs and decided on MH/HPS. There are still a few things that have eluded me in my quest for knowledge.
THis is my plan.. 4x4x6.5 ft grow tent with a 1000w MH/HPS convertable ballast for vegging with MH and flowering with HPS. I'm a little confused when it comes to reflectors and cooling. I know I can rig a good exhaust (shouldn't be hard, the tent comes with holes), but I'm unaware how much air should be used to cool the light. My grow friend mentioned how important it is to blow carbon filtered air through the reflector to keep the bulb from exploding...?!?!?!.
If I use a reflector, that is not air cooled, and I rig up a GOOD exhaust sucking all the air from the top of the tent into an attic, is that enough to cool the light or do I need to have ventilation AND a fan on the light?
Are aircooled reflectors worth it or necessary?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind 
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#320091 - 11/22/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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 Not important to "blow carbon filtered air" at all. That's just silly.
As far as air movement is concerned, you do want an oscillating fan or some other method of moving air around your plants to keep them moving and help them develop strong stems. If you have a good exhaust, and a clear intake then the temps in your tent should be okay.
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"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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 Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,981
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: 81renaissance]
#320171 - 11/22/09 08:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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well as far as the air flow is concerned...
if you want the temperature in the tent to never exceed 80 degrees F, you will set that as your exhaust temperature.
Then you can take the temperature of your air outside of the tent, we'll assume 70 degrees F for the inlet temp.
And knowing the humidity the of the exhaust and the outside air will aid in the accuracy of this. But for this I will assume a 5% increase in humidity between the inlet air and the outlet air...just to demonstrate the effect it has.I will use 45% RH inlet and 50% RH outlet for this.
Using a Psychrometic Chart for Air at 1 atmosphere of pressure, you can look up the enthalpy of your inlet and exit conditions.
Inlet enthalpy: 38 KJ/KG of dry air
Outlet enthalpy: 54 KJ/KG of dry air
Using this, you can assume a 1000W input of heat energy to the system from the light, which is equal to 1 KJ/s.
You can then plug these into the equation for heat loss through the air flow, where m = mass flow rate of dry air, and Q equals the heat flow out of the system:
Q = m (54 - 38)
substituting 1 KJ/s for Q, we find that m = .0625 kg dry air/second
from the psychrometric chart at the temp and RH of the exhaust, we find that the specific volume of the exhaust is .864 meters cubed/KG dry air.
and by multiplying m by the specific volume, we then find the volumetric flow rate of the exhaust needs to be .054 meters cubed / second.
This then converts to 114.4 cubic feet per minute, or about 115 CFM minimum.
Obviously, no one should run at the absolute minimum, and differences in inlet and outlet temps and humidity will effect the required flow rate, and this flow rate does not take into account the actual rate of water loss from the plant...so in order to keep the humidity down you may need to run higher flow rates.
If you need anymore help with this method or have questions feel free to ask.
Hope this helps,  
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Data]
#320364 - 11/23/09 01:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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hmmm...I concur. Thanks! I can't wait to hook it up. 
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,981
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#320388 - 11/23/09 05:22 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ive also heard that replacing the entire volume of your grow room every minute usually works fine...and would probably be a lot easier to calculate haha
peace
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Pilze
Funky Monk
Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 770
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#320413 - 11/23/09 10:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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are you talking about those sun huts?
i want to get the 4'x4'x7'
Edited by Pilze (11/23/09 11:07 AM)
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Pilze]
#321350 - 11/25/09 01:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea thats the one. 4x4x7. I hope I win that...I bid on an inline aircooled fan. I don't know much about where the air is moving or if the aircooling even doubles as exhaust but my main concern is can an aircooled inline light be set up in a 4x4 space??? I already bid on the lights and stuff, the dimensions of the reflector are 18x15x7.5 in. To rig up the cooling looks like it takes more space than I have, does anyone know for sure? Also, if it doubles as exhaust too, that would be great...
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Pilze
Funky Monk
Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 770
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#321411 - 11/25/09 10:15 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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i would get one of those reflectors that has a place to connect the air tubes to blow air through it, so you can put the light closer to the plants. then all i would worry about is air flow on the plants and that wouldnt be too hard.
new air comes in through the bottom, up through the plants, and out the top.
i cant wait to get a sun hunt. i only have a 150 watt HPS right now. its not like thats going to do a hell of a lot, but im going to get what i can from it while i safe up money for a 4-600 watt HPS
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Pilze]
#321415 - 11/25/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have 2 of these; http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=4173
not the highest quality I'm sure, but it's air cooled, sealed glass lens, and was only $90 each.
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Pilze
Funky Monk
Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 770
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Pilze]
#321416 - 11/25/09 10:31 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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ooo thats very nice... thanks for the link. 
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Pilze]
#321418 - 11/25/09 10:35 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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if you're looking for a 600W still I also have a link for a 600W lumatek (VERY nice light) for only $150
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Pilze
Funky Monk
Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 770
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#321654 - 11/25/09 05:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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ooo that sounds nice. can i see???
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Pilze]
#321719 - 11/25/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Harry: when you were growing with the tent, did you just set up the fan exhaust, and do the passive intake? Are there pictures of your setup somewhere?
My grow space just got a whole lot smaller (as in about 2x2) and I'm trying to figure out the best way to use it. Might be my first ever SCROG grow!
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: 81renaissance]
#321758 - 11/26/09 12:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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yep, I had a 95cfm squirrel cage fan that I had sealed on the exhaust, and then I left only one of the 2 velcro windows open and one of the weird little drawstring sleeves on the opposite side for maximum passive intake.
I found that that arrangement actually created enough wind inside the tent that I didn't even need another fan inside. the passive intake facilitated evapostranspiration, it was magnificent
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#321925 - 11/26/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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So if I'm running a 1000w in a 4x4x7 tent, is a 6in vortex fan, (449cfm) and a small oscillating fan, just for a breeze,good enough passive intake? How about with a carbon filter?
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#322014 - 11/26/09 02:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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lol dude you have 112 cubic feet. 449cfm is HUGE overkill, but I'm sure it'll only make the buds nicer. it's not so much overkill that'll it'll be bad, it's just about 5 times more than the minimum
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#322022 - 11/26/09 03:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I was kind of thinkin for overkill. I figured it would keep everything way cool and ventilated. How bout if i put the fan on a timer? maybe every other 5mins or something? Has that ever been done before or is it better to keep it on?
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#322231 - 11/27/09 10:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
yep, I had a 95cfm squirrel cage fan that I had sealed on the exhaust, and then I left only one of the 2 velcro windows open and one of the weird little drawstring sleeves on the opposite side for maximum passive intake.
I found that that arrangement actually created enough wind inside the tent that I didn't even need another fan inside. the passive intake facilitated evapostranspiration, it was magnificent
In the 2x2 how many plants did you have going?
I can't recall if you had a grow log...link if so?
good to hear that you were able to create enough air movement with just the passive.
To clarify then, you didn't duct/air cool your light; temps were controlled by the exhaust fan+passive intake.
Do you think its wise to max out the wattage inside the tent at 600 or could she handle a 1000w setup if you had a higher CFM fan?
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: 81renaissance]
#322308 - 11/27/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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These are my final plans. My only concern is the position of the carbon filter and the length of ducting used. There is also going to be an oscillating fan not shown in the pic.1) Will the 449cfm Vortex fan work well enough for passive ventilation and light cooling despite the sharp bends in the duct and its length into the attic? I want to place the fan in the attic to reduce noise, my room is next to the front door. Should it be inside the tent?2) Noise reduction ideas? I was going to stuff foam or something into my windows but was wondering if anyone had any tips to muffle noise without sealing the room and probably making it real hot.3) Is the carbon filter ok there, over the light?
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: 81renaissance]
#322326 - 11/27/09 03:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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holy shit man, 600W? I ran it with 250W of CFL's and 2 plants, and 3 more in solo cups (barely even count as plants in there)
I suppose you can try it, but that's a pretty frickin' insane amount of light for only 4 square feet
this is the only grow I did in it
http://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/251624/fpart/1/vc/1
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#322369 - 11/27/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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hahaha...I don't know why I put the 1000w question out there, I keep thinking of my 4x4 space.
So, you think too hot with 600? I'd love to see some great yields from that space, and I don't think I'm passing the point of diminishing returns with 150w per sq ft do you?
400W would give me 100w/ft^2 so maybe that's my best bet.
Just thinking out loud...I don't want to do a CFL grow, I like the results from HID too much.
Quote:
DJ_avocado said:
These are my final plans.� My only concern is the position of the carbon filter and the length of ducting used. There is also going to be an oscillating fan not shown in the pic.1) Will the 449cfm Vortex fan work well enough for passive ventilation and light cooling despite the sharp bends in the duct and its length into the attic?� I want to place the fan in the attic to reduce noise, my room is next to the front door. Should it be inside the tent?2) Noise reduction ideas? I was going to stuff foam or something into my windows but was wondering if anyone had any tips to muffle noise without sealing the room and probably making it real hot.3) Is the carbon filter ok there, over the light?
I would personally put my fan and filter together. You mention passive ventilation, but from your sketch it looks like the grow room is a sealed environment...where is the air coming in?
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: 81renaissance]
#322493 - 11/27/09 11:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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well if you have both I'd say turn on the 600 in there for a day or two and see how hot it gets. if it remains reasonable, then put some girls in there and grow some sexy nugs
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: Harry_Ba11sach]
#322504 - 11/28/09 12:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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So what if the air goes from the LIGHT---->(ATTIC) CARBON FILTER----> FAN? ? The tent has holes in it for air intake on the bottom, I was gonna leave them open.
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#322506 - 11/28/09 12:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh yea...maybe a small carbon filter can be attached to the fan and made to fit inside the ducting. How farfetched is this idea? I was wondering also, would active ventilation make enough of a breeze for the plants inside?
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#322700 - 11/28/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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DJ, your LIGHT-->Filter-->Fan would be fine. Just make sure that your tent is still light tight with the holes open.
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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doctormark
Stranger
Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 1
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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 Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#325055 - 12/02/09 09:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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For 4X4 room/tent I will suggest you go with a 400w with an isolated air cooled reflector. By keeping lamp air isolated you dont have to filter the exhaust. Then use a separate charcoal filter and fan for odor control. Also an Ozone system can be added if required.
Please don't use 1000 W in a small space like that. No matter how much ventilation you use, shortwave infrared energy from a 1000w bulb will burn/kill the plants in no time. (Just don't check room temperature, Place your hand palm down under the light (at same height as top of plant) for a minute or two and observe the warmth you feel under your skin. That is inferred energy.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: doctormark]
#325056 - 12/02/09 09:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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man we aren't just guessing you know, many of us actually have lights that size in rooms that small and we don't burn our plants down.
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Pilze
Funky Monk
Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 770
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: doctormark]
#325070 - 12/02/09 09:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
doctormark said:
For 4X4 room/tent I will suggest you go with a 400w with an isolated air cooled reflector. By keeping lamp air isolated you dont have to filter the exhaust. Then use a separate charcoal filter and fan for odor control. Also an Ozone system can be added if required.
Please don't use 1000 W in a small space like that. No matter how much ventilation you use, shortwave infrared energy from a 1000w bulb will burn/kill the plants in no time. (Just don't check room temperature, Place your hand palm down under the light (at same height as top of plant) for a minute or two and observe the warmth you feel under your skin. That is inferred energy.
grab a book and start reading.
BTW, its spelled, "infrared."
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: doctormark]
#325088 - 12/02/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
doctormark said:
Please don't use 1000 W in a small space like that. No matter how much ventilation you use, shortwave infrared energy from a 1000w bulb will burn/kill the plants in no time. .
Asinine. I've literally seen 2000w HID grows run over a 4x4 space and the only thing that happened is INSANE yields. Please ignore this guy.
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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DJ_avocado
myco-botanist
Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 147
Last seen: 12 years, 30 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: 81renaissance]
#327611 - 12/05/09 11:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hahaha. yeaaa.... INsAnE YielDS. Thanks. If I were to add another fan to the grow tent, besides the 6in vortex rigged to the light, would it wiser to use an oscillating fan on the plants OR a squirrel cage fan or computer fan for an active ventilation? In other words, which one would be the better bang for the buck? I wanna run two fans max for this tent, but I don't know which option is more effective.
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
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Re: GRow ROom DEsign - Improvements? [Re: DJ_avocado]
#327723 - 12/06/09 01:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't know about another squirrel cage/computer fan, it would make more sense to me to just use one fan but with a higher CFM...
The oscillating fan is handy to keep the plants moving, and to prevent bud rot, and assist in transpiration by lowering humidity in the room.
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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